More mental breeding

[Sabine]

Since it doesn't look good for aquiring a harliquin lop in Ireland I might have to settle for another colour/pattern. I want to repeat/enhance Magic's pattern (broken black/butterfly?)in the offspring instead, How do I go about it? I may have access to some decent agouti bucks, would that make sense, since agouti is dominant? What other colour/pattern should I pick? A self colour? Which one?
Any advice appreciated. I am doing all my breeding mentally at the moment so that I get it right when/if i do so. Thanks

 

[TinysMom]

If you're wanting to enhance broken black - you need black or broken black pretty much. Agouti is dominant over black - meaning you'll get agoutis most likely (broken agoutis maybe).

You could get another broken black and breed the two together - each baby has a 50% chance of being broken, 25% chance of being solid and 25% chance of being a "charlie" - think of it as a "broken broken black"...meaning you'll have less pattern on the charlie - BUT - the only thing it can give you when bred - is brokens since it carries two broken genes and not one.

Hope this helps.

 

[Sabine]

In that case wouldn't it make sense to use the father as a stud. Magic has his pattern, but his is even darker+ he's proven to produce healthy offspring. Also he lives next door, so I can decide on breeding/rebreeding myself without having to consider other breeders' schedules. From what I've heard this type of inbreeding is ok as long as I don't keep using him in further generations.

By the way, this is Magic, looking at her pattern I'm not sure if she still qualifies for broken black or if she's a charly?

This is her dad, Nightshade

 

[Sabine]

P.S. I had completely forgotten, that Nightshade has a brown patch lower down his back that turns black when he gets his winter coat. Does that mean I may get tricoloureds after all?

 

[BlueGiants]

Magic is definitly a broken, not a charlie. The Charlie's usually have very, very little markings. Maybe a spot on the nose and a few spots on the head, and then mostly white. (In the US, less than 10% of the "other color" is a charlie.)

This is a charlie (Mini Rex). She only has black on her ears, around her eyes and a couple spots on her nose... She is out of a solid blackbuck and a heavilyly marked ("booted") broken black doe.

If bred with a solid black, she should throw all properly marked broken babies.

 

[Sabine]

i was wondering, does the charly in the picture have the double broken gene if one parent is solid? I thought broken was dominant over solid? Trying to learn... I heard the term "false charly" mentioned before?

 

[Sabine]

And also what counts as a "perfectly marked" broken. Is Magic anywhere close to it? Her father is darker but most his black is on the back half of his body. Is that desirable? Does his brown patch indicate the tricolour gene. Could that show up in further offspring?

 

[BlueGiants]

Sabine wrote:

i was wondering, does the charly in the picture have the double broken gene if one parent is solid? I thought broken was dominant over solid? Trying to learn... I heard the term "false charly" mentioned before?

Her father carries broken too... (He has a tiny white spot on his tail base anda couple white hairs on one toe, so he could be a "false self"). .. so I won't know for sure until I breed her. But I suspect shecarries a double broken gene and is a (proper) charlie.

 

[BlueGiants]

Sabine wrote:

And also what counts as a "perfectly marked" broken. Is Magic anywhere close to it? Her father is darker but most his black is on the back half of his body. Is that desirable? Does his brown patch indicate the tricolour gene. Could that show up in further offspring?

I think Magic is very close to perfectly marked. She has a lovely "butterfly" on her nose and fairlysymetrical markings over her shoulders and loin. Some judges seem tolean towards lighter marked rabbits, some like a blanket (heavily marked) pattern.

I don't know about Nightshades brown spot. Not sure if it's a genetic coloration or something else. I don't see anything wrong with taking her back to her sire. It will give you an idea of what's behind him (color wise). You may get solids (selfs), brokens and charlies. And if he carries agouti, you may get agoutis too.

 

[Sabine]

Thank you so much Bluegiants. that clarifies a lot for me. I never understand genetics unless I have a particular rabbit in mind and can sort of visualize it. Sorry for being a pain, but i have one more question about agouti: If it's a dominant gene, how can a rabbit carry it without it being present? Wouldn't it have to show up somehow? Thank you so much for th comments, I know I could probably all read it up in a book but it never makes any sense to me unless I consider a particular case

 

[BlueGiants]

Well, if you take her back to her sire, you will be doubling up on his genes, so the idea is if he carries anthing else besides black (broken black) in his background, so does she. So what ever she throws will give you an idea of his genetics, as well as hers.

A lot of times, when I take a black daughter back to the black sire, I'll get blacks as well as blues (since that's what my lines carry). Although the black is dominant.

With the Flemish, I know someone that bred a black (carried straight black and blue at least 9 generations) to a white (carried light gray, steel grayand white, and probably black). The resulting 8 babies were as follows: 1 white, 2 Blacks, 1 steel,2 light grays and 2 SANDYS. Now the black and the white were the only rabbits this guy owned, so I know he didn't "mix" anything else in. He called me up and I drove over an hour to see the litter... (OK, I didn't believe him. He told me he got BROWN rabbits...)

Now the presence of the white indicated that BOTH parents probably carried a white gene... goodness only knows how far back in the black pedigree that was. I expected to see the blacks, light grays and steel. But the Sandys (agouti) were a total surprise. Yeah, the agouti should always show if it's present. But I've seen stranger things happen.

 

[Sabine]

I can be looking forward to quite a surprise then That makes it the more interesting. The orangy brown patch on Nightshade may suggest another colour anyhow. Magic's mum (Coco, you can see her in the picture too) is a sooty fawn/tort? I am not sure if that is one of the agouti colours. but it's quite likely that her colour will show up somewhere along the line

 

[BlueGiants]

Well. if you are going to concentrate on the blacks, I'd avoid using anything other than the blacks (or blues if you come across them) in the breeding lines. Coco probably contributed "other" colors to Nightshades genes, and they can show up at any time.

But this is part of the pedigree part of the process. Now you can keep track of the backgrounds of each rabbit and it will give you a better idea of what to expect in each breeding. You already know Magic's parents and grandparents.

 

[Sabine]

I'll use Nightshade (Magic's dad) for this time. Sorry coco is actually Magic's mum, I might have said that wrong earlier And if I keep breeding with the offspring I'll use a black buck maybe to enforce the black

 

[BlueGiants]

OOOOPS! My misunderstanding... Using a black with Magic in the future would be great to strengthen the black genes.

 

[NZminilops]

I'm not a breeder but I study the rules and genetics as it interests me, and wasn't sure but...in NZ we follow a lot of the BRC rules and regulations, and in NZ the broken variety is not longer accepted (if we are talking about for shows etc). 'Butterfly' has replaced broken. They must have a large, full complete butterfly over the nose, and no spotty back like your bunny there, it must be more of a solid blanket of colour over the back and breaking up where the blanket extends into the white.

I have no idea if you do showing there or plan to breed to sell to others who may show, or even if you would follow the same rules in Ireland, just thought I'd mention it. If just for pets then I guess it wouldn't matter . I am not even sure if that's just an NZ thing or we got that rule from the BRC, I did hear some breeders talking about it though and read a comment from the secretary of the NZRC about the issue.

 

[BlueGiants]

Sorry, in the US the spotted colors are called broken... I should have remembered that they are called butterfly in the UK.

I didn't know that they prefer a blanket pattern, with less spots. I know the Breed Standards are available on line for the BRC. (http://www.thebrc.org/) That would be the place to start, especially if you are considering showing your rabbits.

 

[Sabine]

It sounds to me that Night shade's pattern is more a proper butterfly then. I should probably stick to breedng the offspring then that resemble him most. I don't know about shows yet. I first have to breed those ears down

 

[TinysMom]

I thought I'd share some pictures to help you out...

I forget who said it - but there are basically two type of broken patterns - one is more of a blanket pattern (I don't have a good example in my herd - I think...not sure) and the other one has the spots on the back.

This is Bandita - although it doesn't show her back well. To look at her - you'd think she was a charlie:

She is NOT a charlie though. One of her parents was solid and from my understanding of genetics - if a rabbit carries the broken gene - it will be spotted/broken. From the way BlueGiants is describing her rabbit - I'm thinking its what lionhead breeders call a "mismark" in the fact it has the bit of white. However - when she breeds the rabbit - then we'll know for sure. BlueGiants has been breeding a lot longer than I have (although I've did focus on breeding brokens for a while as I love them).

I am wondering if Sundae is more of what they call the blanket pattern - here are two photos of her...

Here is Girly Girl - another broken - but she doesn't have the full butterfly:

These two pictures are of Leona - she's what I consider a well-marked broken.

and some more photos..

Anyway - sorry to hijack your thread to share photos - just - I LOVE BROKENS!

I would breed her back to her dad (ok - gotta share one more - of my guy Puck (RIP)...

and

From my experience - the best way to get good-looking brokens is to use a nice broken (like the dad) to breed with. I've gotten very nice brokens from my litters when the parents had a full butterfly - usually a large percentage will have the butterfly on the nose...but if my mom (usually my does were broken) didn't have the full butterfly - I didn't get it from the kids either.

I forget - how old is your rabbit that you're wanting to breed? I ask because she should probably be bred before she's a year old - I think for lops its 9-10 months is the preferred top age for the first litter - but don't quote me on that as I don't breed lops!

 

[Sabine]

It sounds like Nightshade is the proper butterfly pattern than. So I will probably keep breeding with offspring that resembles his pattern. I don't know about shows yet. I have to breed those ears down first