How can

[peanutsbun]

I have been lurking for awhile,justsitting back andwatching allwhat'sgoing on here. It's awonderull site, but i have aquestion.

How can someone who came inon Mon Apr 4th, 2005, supposedly, notknowinganything about Rabbits - lookingfor variousanswers to mostly basicquestions, suddenly go to having much more seriousquestions, thatmostnonbreederswouldn't think to askinsuch a short period oftime? Iguess my question is, Ifyoudidn't have prior knowledgeof breeding and werelooking to get such iinformation, howwould you know these questions to ask?

I amnot buying intothefactthatanyone can absorbthatmuch knowledge in the short span ofonemonth, this iswhatIamtalking about

"I have a question about breeding and genes, etc. However,I'm asking this ONLY because I'm curious - I don't plan to breed "

I understand there issome knowledge ofgenetics thru school and such. Sosomebasicunderstanding isprobable.But togo from this statement to this next statementin such a short span oftime is formeinconcievable.http://rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=7247&forum_id=1

LikeI havesaid I have beenherefor awhile. I justthisdaydecided to become a member soI couldget a better understanding of some questions Ihavebeen having.

Also it is my understanding that 2 ofthese Rabbits have Pasturella,and3 otherrabbits have been exposed?Granted the 2 sickly rabbits areonmedication, butdoesn't thisadd totherisk ofthe others contractingthis disease? andifsoWhy would you plan on bringing moreRabbits into the situation and risk more I'llRabbits? I feel these questions should havebeenaddressed before any thoughts of breedingwould have surfaced.

What is the conciquence of Pasturella,how contagious is it? how is ittransmitted , ie: air born, fluids, feces? Can itbe transmitted thru clothing, shoesetc? How detramental isitto the rest ofaherd? What aboutnewborn babies, can they contract it, Howwould it be handled ifthey were to contract it?

Sorry this post is so long butI felt I should point outthat.The truth wasn't told inthe begining, the Agenda wasfar more complicated than just a newowner to rabbits in an adultlife. I Feel this should havebeen adressed in the onset insteadof fibbing a way throughit and one monthlater laying it out as an after thought. This is just my opinion, Iam the sole owner of it,and before anyone brands me asa troll, i suggestrunning back through thepreviousposts and seeingthis for yourself.

 

[pamnock]

In my opinion, you have not made a fair assessment based on the limited information you have.

As far as I know, the rabbits were never definitively diagnosed withPasteurella. It is my understanding that the pathogen (orirritant) was unknown. She has been putting muchconsideration into this situation, weighing different options and alsoconferred with me privately on my opinion of the situation.

I have been involved in rabbits for many years and have dealt with manytypes of people. I have also been answering Q's privately forthe poster you are referring to and the gut feeling I have is that thisperson is genuine and I do not feel any attempts have ever been made tosomehow hide their intentions. Intelligent people do have atendency to catch on very quickly, and she has been doing a lot ofresearch.

I do however, question *your* intentions, Peanutsbun.



Pam

 

[TinysMom]

peanutsbun wrote:

I have been lurking for awhile,justsitting back andwatching allwhat'sgoing on here. It's awonderull site, but i have aquestion.

How can someone who came inon Mon Apr 4th, 2005, supposedly, notknowinganything about Rabbits - lookingfor variousanswers to mostly basicquestions, suddenly go to having much more seriousquestions, thatmostnonbreederswouldn't think to askinsuch a short period oftime? Iguess my question is, Ifyoudidn't have prior knowledgeof breeding and werelooking to get such iinformation, howwould you know these questions toask?

Since it is my posts being referred to - I'm going totake the time to answer this. I apologize in advance if thisis long - but I feel I should explain since my honesty is beingquestioned.

First, the background about me. I had rabbits as a child andwas a "backyard breeder" in the fact that my rabbits just sort of bredthemselves. We wound up taking the rabbits to the pet storeand getting credit towards rabbit food for them. Mind you,this was in the late 60's and early 70's...and I didn't know that whatwe were doing was irresponsible. This lasted for maybe 3 or 4years...Iforget.

Over the years since then, we've had other pets off and on (I once hada skunk too and that was fun). Over a month ago, we rescued arabbit that was hopping around and when it was returned to its homefive days later through an ad I placed in the paper, I hadcome to realize that I really enjoyed having a rabbit and wantedmore. I guess I was bitten by the bunny bug.

I amnot buying intothefactthatanyone can absorbthatmuch knowledge in the short span ofonemonth, this iswhatIamtalking about

"I have a question about breeding and genes, etc. However,I'm asking this ONLY because I'm curious - I don't plan to breed"

When Iwrote that post, I was not planning to breed at all. Myhusband and I have both been fascinated by genetics since high school -and while I am not bragging when I say this - we both have tested justa point or two away from being able to join mensa. In thepast, we have often purchased magazines if we saw topics in there ongenetics because we were so fascinated by it. My husband isfrom a family of 8 kids....4 have brown eyes and 4 have blue.Four kids also have blonde hair and 4 have brown....so genetics wasalways fascinating tohim.

So I really was trying to understand what would breed what. Ialso was fascinated in genetics when I homeschooled my kids and we wentthrough high school biology. They also tend to be fascinatedby genetics...and so yes, we actually do discuss it when we see thingsthat cause us to think about it.

I understand there issome knowledge ofgenetics thru school and such. Sosomebasicunderstanding isprobable.But togo from this statement to this next statementin such a short span oftime is formeinconcievable.http://rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=7247&forum_id=1

LikeI havesaid I have beenherefor awhile. I justthisdaydecided to become a member soI couldget a better understanding of some questions Ihavebeen having.

Also it is my understanding that 2 ofthese Rabbits have Pasturella,and3 otherrabbits have been exposed?Granted the 2 sickly rabbits areonmedication, butdoesn't thisadd totherisk ofthe others contractingthis disease? andifsoWhy would you plan on bringing moreRabbits into the situation and risk more I'llRabbits? I feel these questions should havebeenaddressed before any thoughts of breedingwould havesurfaced.

When I bought my first three bunnies - I had no plans ofbreeding. I then thought about running a rescueorganization but once my bunnies had Paturella, I realized that wasout. (Actually, I havesince realized that Iprobably could do it the same way I am consideringbreeding -by having the rabbits in a totally different area with totallydifferent supplies and not letting the two groups of rabbitsmeet).

So yes, I did havequestions about pasturella. Ididn't know how it could be transmitted at first. I'm stillnot 100% sure that is what they had becausemy vet didn't do aculture and the main reason I thought the buns had it was that theywere sneezing and their noses were inflamed a bit. There wasnever any mucous that I saw.

What is the conciquence of Pasturella,how contagious is it? how is ittransmitted , ie: air born, fluids, feces? Can itbe transmitted thru clothing, shoesetc? How detramental isitto the rest ofaherd? What aboutnewborn babies, can they contract it, Howwould it be handled ifthey were to contract it?

Sorry this post is so long butI felt I should point outthat.The truth wasn't told inthe begining, the Agenda wasfar more complicated than just a newowner to rabbits in an adultlife. I Feel this should havebeen adressed in the onset insteadof fibbing a way throughit and one monthlater laying it out as an after thought. This is just my opinion, Iam the sole owner of it,and before anyone brands me asa troll, i suggestrunning back through thepreviousposts and seeingthis for yourself.

I guess you can think what you want - andI really don't care that you feel I was "fibbing". I trulywasn't. For those who care to hear the honest story...here isthe way thingshappened.

a.Had bunny as kid - lovedit.

b. Rescued bunnyabout 6 weeks ago - after returning it - realized I wanted abunny.

c.Purchasedthree bunnies at one time - and thought that would be all I wouldhave

d. Started readingabout bunnies more online - visited well over 50variouswebsites because I became fascinated with them (many werebreeders - some were different breed'snationalgroups webpages and others were looking for information on rabbithealth, etc) - I also purchased something like 8 books on Ebay onrabbits - anything from housetraining them tovarious othertopics.

e.gave up dream about rescuing them because ofthinking theymight havepasturella

f. fell inlove with lionheads the more I read about them....contacted twobreeders in my state and after emails and phone discussions - purchasedtwo lionheads.The breeder I purchased them fromsaid, "With yourobvious love of rabbits and the questions youare asking - you should become a breeder yourself. I get alot of people down in your area of the stateandfromMexico looking forrabbits...." I figured "Nah...noway...."

g. Whilediscussing lionheads withthe breeder - she also shared withme aboutHolland lops. She was telling me howlionheads are wonderful - but lops are even more personable.I wound up buying aHollandlop from one ofher breeder friends in California since they were going to bemeeting inOhio for aconvention.

h.Was talking to my husband about how I wished I could breed lionheadsand he said, "Well, couldn'tyou breed them in the garage ifthey didn't interact with theother bunnies and you were verycareful..."?We have talked about it since webelieve the new garage would have a different air supply and theillness might not spread.

That ishow things have progressed. You must understand though that Ihave lots oftime for "research"online and readingbooks. I do not work outside the home - and I was halfwaylooking for something as a hobby for myself.

If anyone has anymorequestions, please feel free to pm me or post themhere.

Finally- to addressyour finalquestions....about bringing more rabbits into thissituation.

The moreresearch I've done on pasturella, I'm not 100% sure that was what mybunnies had. However, even if itwas - I amcommitted to taking care of them and providingthem medication....and educating myself on signstolook for as far as their health isconcerned. Evenif their lives are"shorter" from having lived with me - I bet they may be happier thanmany other places. They have 10-12 hours perdayof playtime - they aren't locked up in hutchesand never taken out. They are spoiled rottenwithlove and some treats. I'm sure that in many "pasturella-free"homes...they aren't treated nearly as good as the way I treatthem.

Will I breedrabbits? I still don't know - it is something I amconsidering and I have enjoyedthe manycommentspeople have shared. IF I could breed andknew that the rabbits woulddefinitely not be exposed....thenyes, I will do so. OR.....if Ican find a way to getmy buns tested and verify that they didn't have pasturella and thatthey were misdiagnosed...although she did say they had the"snuffles"...then I wouldbreed.

Peg

 

[Stephanie]

Trust me, Peg, your integrity and honesty are not in question on my end. At all.

 

[Lynda]

Peg, imo, is researching, brainstorming, thinking "out loud".....

I rather enjoy it

 

[TinysMom]

I want to add that I have been discussingsnuffles/pasturella with a breeder along with visiting lots ofwebsites. What my rabbits had does not appear to be"pasturella" even though the vet diagnosed them with snuffles.

They had inflamed noses and sneezing but very little discharge (if any)and it was clear -and not like the discharge is inpasturella. There was no discharge on their paws fromcleaning themselves either. I'm thinking the doctor probablydidn't take a culture possibly because there was no obvious dischargethat she could have cultured.

So...I'm not 100% sure that they had pasturella....but I went through a time of worrying that was what they had.

Oh yes, and I started visiting this board March 22nd and read several pages of information before I ever joined in April.

Peg

 

[cirrustwi]

I just wanted to say that I never questionedyour intentions. I think I have a similar love of rabbits, Iseem to love every breed I come into contact with. I reallywould love to have lionheads, but I also want anotherflemish. I'm nuts, I know. LOL

As for the pasturella, as long as you're careful, I don't think itwould be a problem for you as you plan to keep the groupsseparated. If the symptoms return,you might lookinto having a culture. I recently had a pasturella scare, itturned out to be justa URI, and having that culture resultreally put my mind at ease.

Jen

 

[Jenniblu]

Peg is doingresearch before she divesinto anything. Also, when did it become a crime take ininformation for the sake of learning? Remember, one of thethings that separates people from animals is the pursuit and gatheringof knowledge.

Not long ago, I asked about different rare breeds of rabbits and theirtemperaments and certain rare breeds being accepted by ARBA (thanksPam). This was not onlyto gain knowledge, but also(should I ever be able to realize my goals) to possibly go intobreeding and promoting rare rabbit breeds.

If more people were like Peg, then pet mills and animal shelterswould be no more.

 

[dajeti2]

I personally have some reservations. My main concern is the health of the rabbits.

Tina

 

[TinysMom]

dajeti2 wrote:

I personally have some reservations. My main concernis the health of the rabbits.

Tina

Tina,

I understand your concern. I really do. The moreI've read and the more I've talked to others about snuffles/pasturella- the more I've become convinced that my bunnies did NOT havepasturella. I've spent hours and hours with them on a dailybasis and they do not appear to exhibit any of the symptoms - UNLESS -they put their nose too deep in their food bowl and inhale some sort ofdust or chaff from thehay or something like that - and thenthey will sneeze and if they sneeze enough - their nose becomes a bitred.

I've also spent time with all of my bunnies playing together (well,except Tio who was having hormonal problems). They love to betogether and they all seek each other out. They nap togetherand they eat together and they love to chase each other and then getchased. Since adding the lionheads to our family, Kyo hasbecome more loving and affectionate with us as humans.....partlybecause he sees the lionheads with us I think. He comes to mefor treats now and will eat from my hand and give me bunnykisses.

Anyway, here is what one person wrote to me in a private message about snuffles and pasturella:

No -- snuffles doe not equal Pasteurella.There are many pathogens and irritants that can cause snuffles (genericterm for cold symptoms in rabbits).

Clear discharge is generally not cause for undue concern.

The worst cases of snuffles are when the rabbit is blowing largeamounts of white mucous -- these cases do not often respond well totreatment.

I think that is the final thing thatconvinces me that they didn't have pasturella - in fact, the vet calledit "snuffles" when she saw them too. They never did havewhite mucus - possibly just some clear discharge that was hard tosee.

I hope this helps clear up any questions folks might have.

Peg

 

[Buck Jones]

The answers supplied by some of the more knowledgeable breeders here tohttp://rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=7247&forum_id=1were excellent, I thought. Anyone contemplating breeding bunnies would be well advised to consider the advice proffered, so there certainly has been no harm done and rabbit education has been forwarded in an intellectual and civil manner.

I detected no ill will upon the part of that particular poster, so will accept her comments at face value as she in no way impugned anyone here and wrote in a most kind and respectful manner

In point of fact, had I any suspicions, I probably would have responded in much as the same manner as I did even if I believed her to be a troll. I would have done so because her query was an excellent one (without rancor) and served a a foilfor our resident breeders to present some of themost excellent teaching information rendered here.

I encourage people to participate, even suspected trolls, when they abide by our precepts and values, for then, they are not trolling now, are they? Some self- confessed trolls and I have become fast rabbit friends in real life after "sparring" on the Internet.

My wife and I had the pleasure of spending some time with such a"troll," her husband and friend over a long, long five hour dinner in California recently. We laughed over her initial ARA trolling attempts on the old Rabbits Only Forum and shared rabbit rescue stories. She currently has 10 rescues in her home and is in every way a normal a person as any of us rabbit fanatics can be. I am honored to call her my friend.

Our moderator shows short shrift to bonifide trolls here and they are shown the door quickly and with finality. On the other hand, they are only sent along their way when they have performed in some troll like manner.

I do not believe the person you are casting as persions on isa troll, and if she is, she is worth keeping around if her posts and queries continue to be of the same high literate level.

In truth, your query strikes me as immanently more troll-like than that of the one(Tinysmom) you accuse, however, it, too, serves as a most excellent teaching foil for all of us to learn about how to be civil, kind, and respectful, and not becrassly judgmental.

I thank you very much, for that!

Buck

 

[pamnock]

Unfortunately,peanutsbunpostwas based on speculation, inaccuracies and assaulted Peg's character byaccusing her of lying.

Peg's rabbits were never diagnosed with Pasteurella. Theyappeared to have suffered mild stress in the heat of the Texas move,and had wet noses as well as periodically sneezing.peanutsbunmadethe assumption that the rabbits were infected withPasteurella. With the hundreds of other possibilities, wecannot assume that this is the case.

My friend had a couple rabbits over a period of time that wereocasionally sneezing and occasionally had clear discharge.She separated them from the herd and had extensive testingdone. The tests showed negative for exposure to the morecommon pathogens such as Pasteurella and Bordatella. She usedthese rabbits successfully as breeders, although kept them separatedfrom the main herd and weaned the offspring at 6 weeks of age.

I have discussed Peg's options and concerns with her, and she isapproaching this situation with much consideration to the health andwell being of her rabbits.

Personally, I don't put much credibility into the post of a lurker who won't even identify themselves.

Pam

 

[samandshawn]

Well said Pam

 

[m.e.]

Peg said they were being treated for Pasteurellainthispost.

 

[pamnock]

m.e. wrote:

Pegsaid they were being treated for Pasteurella inthispost.

I believe she had been told that any rabbit which sneezes and has arunny nose has Pasteurella. (Hence the reference to Pasteurella in herearlier posts). Her further research indicated that this wasnot the case.

Pam

 

[m.e.]

Right, but it is not that hard for anyone to conclude the following from Peg's post:

it is my understanding that 2 of these Rabbits have Pasturella,and 3 other rabbits have been exposed? Granted the 2 sickly rabbits areon medication, but doesn't this add to the risk of the otherscontracting this disease?

This query was not unfounded, and certainly not out of linebased on the information available (especially since no one is privvyto private conversations between two members ) This was theinformation - "the tweebs have had to take medicine for pasteurella forthe last several days." - and it was a genuine concern.

 

[Bramble Briar86]

I honestly don't think that peanutsbun had wrongintentions...i actually thought the opposite, with the informationgiven, and from her point of view, it can/will seem awfully suspicious.

Not really wanting to go either way on this, just thought i'd stick up "for the little guy."

Not saying that Tinysmom is wrong/right not saying that peanutsbun iswrong/right, i think they both came through with honest intentions,niether should be faulted.

Ellie

 

[pamnock]

Perhaps peanutsbun could have furtherinvestigated the current state of Peg's rabbit's health beforeanonymously attacking her credibility.

Ifound thecrypticreference of Peg'salleged deceit and her implied agenda rather a mystery. Onceagain, I question the credibilty and intelligence of the poster,his/her implications and the lack of being able to spell simplewords.

To me, this spells "T R O L L".

"The truth wasn't told in the begining,the Agenda was far morecomplicated than just a new owner to rabbitsin an adult life. IFeel this should have been adressedin the onset insteadof fibbing a way throughit and one monthlater laying it out as an after thought." Quote peanutsbun.

Pam

 

[m.e.]

BrambleBriar, I think you're right.Peanutsbun had some concerns, and rightly so given the informationavailable. She voiced those concerns in an appropriate manner.

In turn, TinysMom adequately defended her position , and has the backing of several senior members of the forum.

I don't think anyone was really "in the wrong" here. It may be apersonality thing, perhaps a tendency to overthink the situation, butgiven a similar circumstance I don't see what I would have donedifferently than Peanutsbun. That's exactly how I would have respondedif I had genuine concerns about a member.

 

[pamnock]

Nope -- it's not ok -- I'm mad!

I just can't understand why peanutsbun has stirred the fire, and leftit unattended if he/she is so concerned. This didn't feelright from the moment I read the post, and I'm generally fair and easyto get along with. I had a bad, gut feeling about this onethough. . .

Pam