Hobby Breeders vs Respectable Breeders

[MsBinky]

Sorry to ask this but I was wondering everyone's views on breeding in general.

I was wondering... What makes one a "Hobby" breeder?

And to be a respectable breeder, do you have to breed to ARBA standard? And does mixing make you a hobby breeder?

Is a hobby breeder necessarily a bad thing? Or does it mean that it's just a different thing?

What if you are only selling your bunnies as pets because you don't like the idea of showing? Is it still wrong to mix?

I'm sorry if it sounds really dumb :bagheadI'm just trying to better understand certain things.

 

[Bo B Bunny]

This is just my personal take on the questions you are asking about. I don't breed.

1. A hobby breeder (I had this wrong - not sure why) Part time breeder that doesn't really show rabbits maybe.


2. A respectable breeder is someone who breeds with the knowledge/science under their belt of how the different genetic makeups can and will improve breed quality. They show or sell their rabbits to show.

3. You forgot the backyard breeder - someone who just breeds and lets their rabbits breed - mixed for no reason (developing breeds are mixes)....

We have so many rabbits who need homes..... we don't need anymore than absolutely necessary - that's for the continuation or development of a breed.

 

[TinysMom]

MsBinky wrote:

Sorry to ask this but I was wondering everyone's views on breeding in general.

I was wondering... What makes one a "Hobby" breeder?

Perhaps it is because I studied how to do tax returns three times with H&R Block....but I look at a hobby breeder as someone who does it part-time (it is not their full source of income).

The terms I tend to think of when I think of breeding are more like, "backyard breeder" (which is usually someone who is running a bunny mill) and "respectable breeder" (which I usually just think of as a breeder who isn't doing a bunny mill type thing.

And to be a respectable breeder, do you have to breed to ARBA standard? And does mixing make you a hobby breeder?

This is so subjective. I know of breeders who study genetics and talk about it on various email lists...yet turn around and breed a mama with kits that are four weeks old...just so they can get extra litters every year. They're breeding to the standard - just they're over breeding. I have no respect for them.

My first litters were um....well...I knew almost nothing about genetics. A few months later another breeder teasingly said to me, "What the h-ll type of breeding are you doing down in your barn Peggy? Don't know you about genetics at all?"

Guess what? I started learning. I needed that kick in the butt.

Many of our current breeds were once mixed breeds and some of the current breeds under consideration with ARBA came about from PURPOSEFUL mixed breeding. One breed that comes to mind is velveteen lops.

I have bred mixed litters - I bred for lionlops. I also bred a doe that wasn't very much to Puck to get some lop litters because I had requests for lops and I didn't have a lop eared doe at the time.

But those were specific circumstances and specific purposes. Once that the purpose was met - I didn't just keep on doing mixed breedings. (I also brought in Milina, a choocolate holland lop doe that worked well with Puck).

Is a hobby breeder necessarily a bad thing? Or does it mean that it's just a different thing?

This is a tough one to answer....and I think I'm really too tired to give my thoughts now because I feel like my brain is just going so fast.

I don't like irresponsible breeders - I can't stand them. I think that is a bad thing.

I think just putting two rabbits together without knowing what you're doing and being financially prepared and able to take care of any rabbits that may come along...is a bad thing.

I think that breeding mixed breed rabbits if your area is already over run with mixed breed rabbit breeders - is a bad thing. But these are personal beliefs - not the belief of the forum at large...just want to clarify that.

What if you are only selling your bunnies as pets because you don't like the idea of showing? Is it still wrong to mix?

Almost all of mine are sold as pets because I'm disgusted with about 99% of the lionhead community and the way many of them breed or handle their rabbits. In fact, I deliberately try to breed for good personalities for pets.

I guess I sort of do have a problem with mixed breeds if you're only breeding them to breed bunnies. I mean.....there are so many mixed breed rabbits in shelters already....if you're going to breed - at least pic ONE breed and work with it....because I think it will be easier to get homes for rabbits if they're one breed vs. mixed breed (especially if you go to a respectable breeder who will take you under their wing and mentor you).

I may try to write more later .... but I just thought I'd share my input...
I'm sorry if it sounds really dumb :bagheadI'm just trying to better understand certain things.

 

[ZakuraRabbit]

How do you even make rabbit breeding your full source of income? Most rabbit breeders I know would most likely consider breeding a hobby, that doesn't make them bad breeders I was going to start breeding, but I only have one pair at the moment and I don't think I'll be making big money out of it, yet both rabbits are purebred, showable and very nice tempers. It is a hobby, but that doesn't mean I'm not serious about it.

 

[Starlight Rabbitry]

I consider myself BOTH!!!! I have a different view on what a hobby breeder is. I think that whatyou all are refering to may be "backyard breeders".

I am a hobby breeder because my rabbits come first. What I mean is that if I have room, I will breed. If I don't have room, I have to sell some or just wait. I don't sell to just anyone and some of my rabbits I will NEVER get rid of. I don't breed to win. What I mean by that is if my rabbit doesn't win on the table, I don't ship it off to the auction, I find it a home or it may stay as my pet. All my rabbits have names and toys and such. They are my PETS first.

I do show my rabbits, however, I do it as a hobby. If I win, GREAT! However, most of the time I am having too much fun socializing with my friends and the judges that I am getting yelled at to go put my animal on the table! Happens a lot. I am in it for the friendships and to breed better animals. I will not "sacrifice" my happiness by getting rid of my pets to get "better" stock. I have strict culling practices that I try not to get attached to the babies that I am going to sell.

I do not have the funds to keep "buying the best". I work with the rabbits that I have and have made my herd what it is today. I don't like to brag too often as I don't want to be seen as one of those breeders who is annoying. Some people only talk about what rabbit won what. Gets annoying.

I am a respectable breeder as I am active in my local clubs and am secretary for two of them. I am always there to help new people and youth. I have given rabbits to people who I feel deserve them. I continue to educate myself. I will, whenever given the opportunity, pick your brain for information. I, just yesterday, took my rabbit registrar's test. I now know more about all the breeds than I ever did before.

I take pride in my rabbits whether they win or lose. I am very happy to hear people come up to me at the fairs and tell me about the rabbit I sold them last year. I still remember each rabbit and who I sold them to.

One more thing that I feel makes me a repectable breeder is that I keep VERY good records. If you losta pedigree to one of my animals, I could easily mail you a new one that same night. I keep records for everything that ever happens to my rabbits.

I also keep my animals VERY clean. I have never had an outbreak of a disease. *knocks on wood* I pride myself on my rabbitry and as long as I see it as a hobby, it will be fun. The day I try to make a profit out of it, I QUIT!!!!

Sharon

 

[MsBinky]

I see what you mean by itbeing quite subjective, hihi. I understand what you guys are saying.

I was trying to understand how mixing for particular breeds (such as lionlops and plush lops) comes about. I mean, obviously there was some mixing down the line since some accepted breeds are in fact mixed breeds. I just wasn't sure how it was viewed.

I am 100% for breeding for personality. I personally wouldn't breed for shows. I'm sorry to say this (this is a personal opinion, not meant to offend anyone) but I don't really like shows. I don't like the mentality some people have with show rabbits so it is not something I encourage at this point. Not that I can get to the one here anyway but still...

Personally, a respectable breeder to me is one who breeds for quality, not quantity. One who goes about making decisions based on the bunnies' best interests. It's one who doesn't overbreed, who goes in equipped with finances and resources, etc. It's one who doesn't do it for money. I think it is indeed important to learn about genetics and have an idea of what you are doing.

I too don't like irresponsible breeders. I was just wondering if an irresponsble breeder had a general accepted definition (other than the real obvious reasons for being called irresponsible)

I do fully agree that it is great to work with one breed and better that breed. So I guess in the end we pretty much all agree :biggrin2:I think... Hope I don't look dumb

 

[JadeIcing]

I have seen Sharons rabbits. They are so well kept, beautiful rabbits. She is keeping my baby away. I want Chubbs!!!

Going to shows with her I have helped handle rabbits. Bring them from cages to the table and back. You can tell the rabbits who have been cared for and rabbits that are not.

 

[MsBinky]

I respect people who care for the rabbits sincerely :biggrin2:

 

[Bo B Bunny]

You'd be respectin me and Lexi right now! Bo is all snuggled on Lexi, fed a couple of cheerios and being massaged now!

I know that when new breeds are developed it's kinda where I said they have the science and ideas. Like when someone started the velveteen lop. They knew what they wanted and started trying for that rabbit. Sure, there were some "pet" bunnies born but there was a purpose.

 

[Starlight Rabbitry]

MsBinky wrote:

I was trying to understand how mixing for particular breeds (such as lionlops and plush lops) comes about. I mean, obviously there was some mixing down the line since some accepted breeds are in fact mixed breeds.

Let me just say that is only partly correct. In order for a new breed to be accepted as a breed by the ARBA, it must be shown that when breed to each other, they will pass on the traits of the "new breed" and not have babies that look like the breeds that were used. Sorry if this is not making sense. Really hard to explain. The new breed developed by mixed different breeds, must breed true. For example, when breeding Jersey Woolies, I must get all Jerseys in the litter, not "mixes" looking like what was used to develop the breed.

 

[MsBinky]

No I understand that but essentially plush lops come from a few generations of lops/rex mixes no? I mean I am not saying for everyone to go and start mixing their lops and rexes. Lol But I was wondering how it comes about. Do a few selected breeders get an approval for a test breed etc.?

 

[Starlight Rabbitry]

Yes. They need to apply for a Certificate of Development through the ARBA. Breeders who are developing a new breed or even just a new variety need to have at least 30 cages to work with. It does take generations to develop.

Are you a member of the ARBA? If not, I suggest you join as they send so much information to you. There is so much to learn and their magazines are filled with a TON of information. They even have a section for pet people.

 

[Bramblerose]

I refuse to put labels on people, thats an AR tactic thats been used to divide breeders of all species, as 'backyard breeder' and 'puppy mill' are terms they coined and use derogatorily to alienate us from each other and make us easy targets. I mean, for instance, don't many people keep their rabbits in their backyard and breed them there? Isn't rabbit breeding a 'hobby' for many? If you sell your rabbits as pets does that make you a 'pet' breeder only? I prefer to call people by what they do, not what I assume they are, such as show breeder, youth breeder, commercial breeder, or if I think they stink a 'bad' breeder. And quite frankly 'Hobby' breeder covers most of these, as rabbit breeding is a hobby, you don't really make money, only commercial breeders do. 'Hobby breeder' should not be seen as a derogatory term, its not in the dog world, as hobby breeders are often what show breeders are called.

As for mixing rabbits, well its not seen the same way as it is in the dog world, although there are 'Breeder Police' who think your scum if you cross breeds. Because rabbits are so genetically pliable there are always new breeds in the works by someone, or someone is trying to get a new color into their breed, and this has to be done by crossing breeds, the Lilac Satin comes to mind. There are also breeders who from time to time will cross in another breed for a desired charateristic, then breed back into their own breed, its done and many don't talk about it. Silver Foxes can and do throw REW's because New Zealands were bred in at some point, Rex furred Flemish Giants can pop up, because back in the 30's some one worked on a rex furred Flemish, and gave up, but the genes are still there. Mixing breeds is done, can create quick results, and sometimes is a good thing, in reference to new breeds and colors. Mixing breeds just to mix them I don't have a problem with, as long as the breeder has a plan for those babies, or a purpose.

Labeling people is dangerous, it creates an 'us and them' mentality, I'd rather judge an individual in their own merits, not paint people with a derogatory name because I don't agree with what they do.

 

[MsBinky]

Starlight,

No I am not a member but I have been considering joining. I was scared it might be all too technical for me. I don't really know muchabout ARBA other than knowing they are the official dudes to go to. Lol. I wasn't sure what it did internationally (I am planning on moving to Greece) so I was hoping to poke someone abouta better explanation. I went on the site and either I wasnt looking in the right place or something but i didn't find as much info as I was hoping.

Bramble,

I did post this for those reasons. I wanted to see why people were doing the "us and them" thing. I am very much for looking deeper and seeing the person's reasoning behind it etc. I do know that everyone agrees on obvious things such as unsanitary conditions, overbreeding, etc. But I wanted to understand more about the labels and how they came about. I am weird that way I guess. Lol. I am not one to want to label and I hope I didn't come across as asking how to label people. Lol. Rather I wanted to understand why the labelling took place and why one might be labelled as such and another not... Hope I am making sense

 

[Starlight Rabbitry]

The ARBA does a lot internationally. Just write to them and they will explain it to you. Sorry, all I know is they are very active in Canada and in Japan. We are also working with Britain but they have their own club. However, we all work together. It may cost you more to get the mailings when you move to Greece but it is definitely worth it. Lots of great reading.

Sharon

 

[MsBinky]

Thank you :biggrin2:I will check it out :biggrin2:

 

[Bramblerose]

I didn't think that you were labelling anyone Binky, I took your post as an attempt to understand who was what and why, and why would people look down on folks who mixed breeds.

My main concern is folks who don't understand the difference between Animal Rights and Animal Welfare groups. AR groups like PETA and the HSUS are working towards ending all use of animals completely, Wayne Pacelles 'One generation and out' means very simply that if all pet animals were spayed/neutored then in one generation they would cease to exist, this is their goal, to cause extinction of all domestic breeds. They want to stop all consumption of animals on any level and make us all vegans. They are doing this by pushing thru all sorts of legislation to stop/control breeding, and if they succeed, one day you won't be able to keep a pet anything, or you won't be able to find a pet except at a ridiculously high price. Its happening in California, sick black market puppies are being brought in from Mexico because of the prohibitive dog breeding laws in South Cal. Their being sold at ridiculously high prices because of the demand for them. Animal Welfare groups on the other hand push for fair and humane treatment of animals, I'm all for Animal Welfare. However I do not believe that an ants life is just as important as my son's, as some PETA bigwigs feel.

Ethical, Reputable, Respectable, these words can be opinions as well as descriptions, and there's always going to be someone who feels that your doing things wrong, because your not doing it their way. Granted, I know people who are so ignorant and uncaring they shouldn't be breeding anything, and I dislike that as much as anyone. I have someone in my mind right now that I just want to jap slap them because their too stupid to breathe, let alone breed. They bred a NZW buck to a ND doe, because they didn't have another buck. She had one very large kit, and shredded it when it got stuck in her body. Those are the kinds of 'breeders' that I have a problem with, who don't take care of their animals, breed an older doe out of selfishness, breed wrong sized rabbits together, keep filthy cages, don't feed/water well, take rabbits with pastuerella to a show so that someone esles rabbits gets sick, I'm talking actual neglect and abuse. I do not have a problem with people who take good care of their animals but their ethics are different than mine, I can't expect others to believe, do and feel the way I do. I do not wish to be labelled, so I try not to label others.

 

[TinysMom]

I'm gonna stir the pot here and throw in a few things that I was thinking about last night when I posted - but couldn't put into words. Still not sure I'll be able to share them in the way I want to.

I think that many times folks get into breeding without thinking everything through - I thought through a lot but I didn't think through nearly enough...

For instance - my nearest vet that will deal with rabbits is 70 miles away one way. I know as much about rabbits in some things as they do - in other things - they do know more.

But my local vets won't trust me with meds (I understand this) unlike many other breeders I know who can call the vet and say, "I need more bactrim" without bringing an animal in every time. There is a different mindset here.

Secondly - not only do we not have an emergency vet around - but the mindset towards rabbits is more along the lines of "they're livestock" and they aren't treated the same. Its hard to explain - but I saw the difference in the way Tiny was handled by the vet in San Antonio and the way I've seen my rabbits handled locally and at the clinic 70 miles away. BIG difference.

Now I'm gonna get flamed for what I'm about to say - but I'm going to say it anyway - so I'll put on my flame retardant suit.

I'm not in favor of youth breeding either - in most circumstances. In the last two years we've had a number of youth come on who are breeding - sometimes it has been mixed breed rabbits - sometimes it is pedigreed rabbits. But they come on here for help - and their parents don't believe in taking rabbits to the vet - and their parents work full time so even if they need to go to a vet - they don't have transportation - and possibly - if they do have a vet - the vet looks at animals as "livestock" and doesn't really know much about how to treat them or see a need to treat them but would recommend euthanasia a lot of the time.

So what happens? A 12-18 or 20 year old or whatever....is attached to a rabbit but doomed to see it die because they can't help it.

Now if you have a youth who has the support of their parents for transportation and funding for the vet (or they saved up their own money) and a vet who will deal with rabbits and a plan for breeding - like enough cage space, etc - and all that - then yes, I'm fine with youth breeders and I think adult breedes should do all they can to encourage them.

One of my favorite breeders isn't on this forum - but she's a youth breeder and man....she can pick winners. I got some of my best rabbits from her...her mom is the one who started breeding (and still breeds too) but she is just a great breeder and so responsible. Her family is behind her in the breeding and she has their support - so I think it is great that she breeds.

Anyway - those are some things I think folks should consider before breeding. I think they need to consider also the time they'll have for the babies (will they be able to socialize them) etc.

Also - they need to consider things like "Are there people interested in pet bunnies?"....or instance - there are a ton of Netherland dwarf breeders here in Tx - so I didn't want to do that (plus that breed isn't a good match for me). I didn't want to do Holland lops cause I was scared of stuck kits and that can happen. I loved lionheads.....and there weren't a lot of lionhead breeders - meaning - it might be easy for me to find homes for mine...

Peg

 

[MsBinky]

I pretty much agree with everything said so far

I do think that there are many different ways to see certain things but I really like the points that have been brought out so far. Thank you everyone :rose:

 

[gentle giants]

I'm not going to flame you, Peg, I agree. Unfortunatly, I agree because I learned a lot of those same things from my experience breeding whenI was in 4-H. I bred very few litters because my parents wouldn't allow me to breed more than just one or two a year, which was partly because we didn't have the money to vet them if needed. My parents were reponsible enough to not only keep track of who/what/how many I was breeding, but to limit it as well. Many parents will simply allow the child to have free reign when it comes to breeding and selling as well.

I also agree with what you said about thinking things through before you start breeding, but I do see one problem with that. If you have never done breeding before, it's hard to know what all can go wrong. In other words, you need to have the breeding experience before you start breeding. If you know another good breeder, you can learn from that person, but if, like myself, you don't know anyone, all you can do is learn by trial and error.

A note for Zakura. "How do you even make rabbit breeding your full source of income?" The answer is- you don't! The only way to actually make any money off of rabbits at all is usually to breed for meat production, and probably if you give vet care and the like you still wouldn't make anything off of them. Personally, I don't think it's possible to make money off of raising any kind of animal, not and still give them the proper care.