Help! Bonding suggestions with my trio

[Blue eyes]

I'm at a loss and would like some input and suggestions on my next step. For those unfamiliar with my story, I recently posted an "update of bonding trio."
In short, it's been 4 weeks and 2 days. The last week has been just wonderful with them all getting along well.
This morning, we woke to all kinds of commotion. The 2 brothers were going at it. I missed much of it, but had to break up a couple tussles. I finally got out my camera to document. Here's a youtube of the latest. Midway through they all seem calm again, but just wait and you'll see more.
http://youtu.be/sRUW0-dxpJI

My question is, what do I do now? Obviously I can't leave them unattended. If I separate them, that will likely end the bond?

Mocha & sapphire have always gotten along the best. As I'm typing here beside their pen, I have a big piece of cardboard separating Chip from the other two. You will see in the video why I had to do this at least for the moment. The rescue has said from the beginning that they are open to me bringing one of th boys back if it doesn't work out. I was really hoping the three would bond and it appeared they were doing quite well. Now I have serious doubts.

I was quite anxious to bring them all back downstairs to Sapphire's former territory and was in the process of making preparations for that. After this morning though, I'm wondering if I should try bringing just Mocha & Sapphire down to her old cage and leave Chip upstairs until I return him?? I know, though, that if I do that, there will probably be no going back.

All suggestions welcome!

(youtube is still loading as I posted)

 

[Blue eyes]

Here's another video from 40 minutes prior to the one above.

[ame=http://youtu.be/4gFp6WkJbTY]http://youtu.be/4gFp6WkJbTY[/ame]

 

[whitelop]

I don't know anything about bonding bunnies, but I really hope you don't have to return the one.

Do bonded bunnies get into scuffles sometimes? Is that a normal thing, for them to get into like that? I know that they're usually very loving and very close, but don't animals get into fights? Or are bunnies different?

I really hope that it works out, because they brothers are soo cute. I really love their coloring.

 

[Blue eyes]

The thing that set these tussles apart was that I had to separate them. They've had short ones before but then one would back down. It just seemed to be escalating with these two and I had to stop them. :thud:

This is actually the first time (other than the very first day) that I've felt I couldn't leave them unattended. :sigh:

Thanks for responding. Yeah, I was really convinced I'd be able to keep all three together. This morning changed all that. I'm trying to be realistic too. After all, it's been just over 4 weeks and I'm thinking this shouldn't still be happening.

I did see a site that thinks trios seldom work long term -- :dunno and another that has successful examples.

:?:?:?:?

 

[Imbrium]

if you're not ready to give up on it yet, you might try going back to the basics - keeping them separated but near each other for a while; give them time to forget about the fights and adjust to each other again.

 

[agnesthelion]

Oh holy cow. Yeah, that was quite the scuffle Ok, refresh my memory (i'm a little sidetracked with bonding of my own, haha) Did the brothers ever fight before? Like, even after their neuter they still stayed bonded at the shelter and everything??

I tend to agree with Jennifer that if you don't want to give up, then go back to basics. Don't seperate them completely to break the bond all the way, but start from square one again. I remember reading during my bonding research that bunnies have about a 2 week memory about fights and definetely hold grudges. So I would think that Mocha and Chip need to forget about this and then re-trust each other. They are going to remember their fights right now and need to start associating positivity with each other, not the fight.

That being said, I really can't say for sure. I have read a bagillion things on bonding, but nothing on trios. And from the brief amount I have seen, trios add a whole other element to bonding and I'm not confident in my knowledge on that.

I will say that there was a lady at the shelter (not the adoption counselor, just a random lady there) who watched Agnes and Archie's first date. We were small talking and she said she has had rabbits for 20 years and she said she just had to give up on a trio bond. She said she tried but just could not get it to work.

Now again, that's just one random lady's comments so who knows. I dunno, you had made SUCH good progress and if you would have asked my opinion a couple days ago I would have thought they were bonded!!!!! So if I were you it would be hard to give up now. I have always read that bonding is a series of ups and downs. Maybe this is just a down....

Uhg, sorry I guess I'm really not giving that great of advice but just know I'm following and rooting for this all the way. Please keep us updated!!!

Oh and by the way, you stayed extremely calm during those scuffles. Kudos to you And I did kinda half chuckle at Sapphire. She was sitting over in the litter box and you could almost see her rolling her eyes like, "WHat the....? You boys are CRAZY!!" hahaha

 

[Blue eyes]

Hey, Lisa. Yeah, the boys have had some minor dominance scuffles, but nothing this extended and determined. They were never considered bonded at the rescue since they were housed in separate cages. (but they did seem to get along just fine)

The funny thing is that Chip dominated Mocha, then a week or so later, they reversed roles. But today, this wasn't the bottom one trying to take over. This was Mocha, who's already on top, being the instigator. You can't see this on the video, but it appears to me (off camera) that it revolves around Sapphire and being jealous.

Sapphire is funny, though. She tries to stay out of their way.

This whole thing has been quite the experience! The whole last week was just grand. I was patting myself on the back. Sheeesh! Then this!:shock:

 

[Blue eyes]

<<<<VIDEO ALERT>>>>>
If anyone wants to watch the first youtube link posted, the middle calm section lasts until the 5 minute mark (in case you want to skip that portion). I didn't realize that part was so long.

It's calm from 1:35 to 5

 

[agnesthelion]

Oh yeah, speaking of the calm part....how crazy that they all then went over to the litter box and snuggled again?!?! Like what are those boys thinking?? haha

I wonder if the issue is not necessarily with a trio but with bonding two males?? Maybe you should start some heavy researching/asking here about male to male bonding. From what I understand as far as fixed rabbits go, m/m is the hardest bond.

So maybe not get discouraged about the trio but figure out the brothers issues and go from there....?

Just thinking out loud............I just want it to work for you.

 

[Blue eyes]

I'm really torn. The whole episode lasted over an hour. It was apparent that I couldn't leave them in the pen unsupervised. BUT, they've been in that pen for the past 4 weeks. It's how we started the whole bonding. They were never separated -- didn't need to be. :?


I know Sapphire & Mocha have always been lovey-dovey and at ease with each other. Chip's been more the odd man out.

After today's episode, I don't think Chip will ever be fully accepted. I know the rescue has a good turn around on their buns. oh, boy... thinking out loud here...

Since I couldn't leave the boys unsupervised, I decided to go ahead and move sapphire & mocha downstairs to Sapphire's old cage. (I put the mat, litterbox, a toy and water dish from the x-pen in the cage too) They seem just fine and are snuggling together right now. I left Chip in the x-pen.

I think this means I'll have to send Chip back to the rescue. I just can't bring myself to contact them yet.

oh, Lisa, you were posting as I was typing this
yes, I've heard the same on male bondings - never dreamed it would be an issue with these 2 though.

 

[agnesthelion]

I think this means I'll have to send Chip back to the rescue. I just can't bring myself to contact them yet.

^^^Don't feel guilty. Really. You can tell you have tried and done everything you could. Its not like you had them at home for a day or two and then went, "Well, sick of this I'm taking him back". Not the case at all.

I seriously don't think it should be considered a bad thing or judged if you return a bun in situations like these. You gave them a chance. That's more than they had before.

Gut instincts are usually right. If you think that you've always seen Chip not really "fitting in" you could be doing him a favor, really, but giving him the opportunity to find another home where he is full accepted

Let us know how it goes....

 

[ldoerr]

I am sorry that all this happened. I agree to trust your gut instinct. You put a good long hard 4 weeks into this. If you could not get it to work then nobody could get it to work. Those 2 boys are just not meant to be together. Good luck with whatever you decide, and keep us updated.

 

[Imbrium]

agnesthelion wrote:

Oh yeah, speaking of the calm part....how crazy that they all then went over to the litter box and snuggled again?!?! Like what are those boys thinking?? haha

I wonder if the issue is not necessarily with a trio but with bonding two males?? Maybe you should start some heavy researching/asking here about male to male bonding. From what I understand as far as fixed rabbits go, m/m is the hardest bond.

So maybe not get discouraged about the trio but figure out the brothers issues and go from there....?

Just thinking out loud............I just want it to work for you.

I thought F/F was the toughest due to their territorial nature? could be wrong, though... all I know for sure is M/F is easier than same sex.

as others have said, don't feel bad if you do end up returning chip - it's better for him to have a chance at a good bunny bond than to be the odd man out if you can't make the trio thing work.

 

[Blue eyes]

Thanks, all, for your support and encouraging words. I sent an email to the rescue to tell them about Chip... haven't heard back yet.

In the meantime, Mocha & Sapphire are sharing the downstairs cage that was Sapphire's before. They seem to be just fine in there. Normally, I would leave the cage door open all day long, but I've kept them closed in there so they can establish it as theirs.

It's only 7pm here. I am undecided as to let them out for a bit this evening or if I should wait til morning.

 

[agnesthelion]

Hmmm, maybe wait til morning so as not to mess up the vibe they have as bonded in that area. Thats what I would think anyway......

 

[Blue eyes]

Thanks, I think you have a point. They seem pretty content at the moment. They aren't snuggling but look fine where they are. I better leave well enough alone.

I think I was worried they'd get antsy being locked up for too long.

 

[Mariah]

I have been trying to bond my two bunnies, kiwi (female) and papaya (male) for 5 months now! Today I had a break though! Don't give up!

 

[Blue eyes]

Mariah wrote:

I have been trying to bond my two bunnies, kiwi (female) and papaya (male) for 5 months now! Today I had a break though! Don't give up!

Have you been doing bonding sessions? Mine have actually been altogether in an x-pen 24/7 for the past 4 weeks. That's why it's such a disappointment to see them do this after doing so well beforehand.

How have you been doing your bonding?

 

[agnesthelion]

How'd they do all night Suzette?

 

[Blue eyes]

Thanks for asking, Lisa. They did just great. In fact, they're still in there now and cuddling together. :bunnyhug:

I've had a busy day myself. I returned Chip today. It's about an hour's drive each way so that ate up a chunk of my day. (I also have some non-bunny related exciting news which I'll post later on "hare down". )

This evening I think I'll let them out for awhile. I know you've done alot of bonding research... do you remember something about not letting them have too much space too soon? Sapphire was accustomed to having the run of the whole downstairs but it's all new to Mocha. I was thinking of using the x-pen to portion off a section for starters. What do you think? (anyone else's opinion is also welcome )

Here's a pic I just took of them. It's not great but I didn't want to disturb them by getting too close. But you can get an idea of how they're doing. :biggrin2: