Hay vs Bedding & Hutches ideas?

[Bonsai]

Hello!

I am actually new here and I DO plan to post an introduction, but I don't have my bunny's picture on this laptop. So I'm holding off on doing the intro for when I have some good pictures of my baby to show!

Anywho. I've had my bunny bun, Heidi, for about 2 years (2 years in October, oh how time does fly!) and during this time, the bedding I have given her is hay. She's not one to eat much hay so I use it in her environment in the hope that she nibbles it while resting, while playing, or anything like that. However, I am getting a Netherland Dwarf buck in August - he will be neutered the following month - and I was wondering if I should switch to a different bedding.

I spent about an hour at Walmart yesterday cataloging prices on bedding, seeds, trays, and materials for the trays in preparation for some serious overhauls. I'm building a new hutch this summer, a double enclosure, and I am debating whether to stick with hay/straw or switch to a more "plush" bedding.

Heidi seems to like her hay - it is part of how she got her name. When I get her in October of '11, I checked on her about an hour after I settled her in (I backed off to give her some space - I didn't want to overwhelm her) and she was hiding in the hay. All I could see were two little blue ears poking some of the hay up and her twitchy nose. So thus, she became Heidi!

However, I must note that I unfortunately have to keep my bunnies outside. They were adequately cared for, however, and very much loved. Heidi is healthy and happy and I make sure she is never too hot or too cold and predators have never been a concern - she is well protected. The same will go for my Netherland Dwarf, once he is here. (Though everyone is in love with him so far from his picture from the breeder, so I believe I may be on the verge of convincing my family to let me bring them in... Fingers crossed!) My bunny is healthy and happy (and very gentle and loving - she is very affection seeking) so please do not bash me for them having to stay outside. I understand the dangers and risks and I thwart them each in turn adequately.

Now! My research led me to the bedding "Critter Care Natural". At my local Walmart, it is $18.97 for a bag that is compressed to 1,571 cubic inches and expands to 3,667 cubic inches. I believe that'd last me quite a while, but I worry that perhaps it isn't good for rabbits? I read online that hamster owners didn't like it so much because it didn't hold burrows and made their hams itchy but I couldn't find many in-depth reviews for rabbit owners. The last thing I want to do is make Heidi and the Nethie I get uncomfortable!

I would get Carefresh but I've heard that some bunnies really like to eat it. I know rabbits will sample stuff but some reviews I've read say the rabbits will chow down on it. I don't want my buns to get a blockage from their bedding!

Right now, the hay I get is free from a family friend who bales his own hay. If a bale busts in the field, he scrapes it together and my grandpa brings it to me. I usually don't use the whole bale as it is a HUGE bale, but I did have a smaller bale of alfalfa I used when Heidi was a baby - I used it for bedding and feed.

I shake out all the hay and discard anything that looks dirty (like dark strands or any other thing I might see, such as bugs - which I have seen none of, but I always check) before I put it in the cage. I like that the hay can safely be eaten by her as it is orchard grass mix. Its not the timothy hay I'd like for her to have, but I am going to plant a couple trays of that in the coming weeks.

So my question is, is it okay for my rabbits to continue using hay as their bedding? Or should I switch them to a paper/aspen bedding? I'm thinking of using hay as the bedding and something more odor absorbent in the litter boxes as Heidi tends to eat the hay in her litter box - yuck! I think she thinks her litterbox is more of a bed than a litterbox...

I'm also wondering if anyone has some input on double enclosure hutches that I could build, with a dropping pan, and would have an insert between the two enclosures that can later be removed to make one giant hutch. The hutch plan I found online that I like is this one:

http://survivalfarm.wordpress.com/2...-your-first-rabbit-hutch-easy-to-build-plans/

I love the design of it and, judging from that Dutch's size, that's a very spacious hutch. Does anyone have any plans that are better/have that sort of design to it? I'm curious about how I could put protection up around something like that, too. What sort of fence could I put around it during the night/times when I can't be there to watch them to keep cats and dogs out? Those are the main worries for us, we live in the city limits and don't suffer from many opossum/raccoon attacks or anything... Some people suggest a breathable tarp/netting and holding it down with stones on each end but I worry about the breath-ability of it during the hot and humid months here in Tennessee.

We've been keeping my bunny in the enclosed chicken pen which, for a year, was vacant. Recently my grandpa got chickens (Ugh, how I despise them...) and they are pooping all over my poor bunny's cage and the smell of the chickens is, well, overpowering... So we're going to make her a new cage to put elsewhere. But first we need a design for a hutch. I love the openness of the above hutch but I want a slide-out tray for droppings and the hutch must be easy to attach a run/playpen to and does anyone have suggestions for how I could do that to the above hutch?

I'm so sorry for the long post, I tried to not ramble too much! But it is a habit of mine, it would seem. If you want to skip through all the content and straight to my questions, here you go:

Bedding related: Is hay OK to use or should I use some other type of bedding? (I kind of want to use a different bedding for the litter pan so as to make the difference between potty and "home bedding" more prominent) If you have a certain brand/type you highly suggest, please let me know!

Hutch-related question is: What can I use at night as fencing/protection from cats and dogs around the hutch (It will be in an area that is completely shaded - our carport that is used for cookouts and has a ton of space) and... Are there any other similar designs to the one I posted earlier that you would recommend?

Thank you so much for your patience! And thank you to anyone who takes the time to read and respond.

 

[Blue eyes]

I'll begin by letting you know that I house my rabbits indoors.

The link you gave for the hutch, aside from the modifications you'd like to see... is that the size you were thinking of splitting with a divider? If so, I'd say that is rather small unless it would be permanently attached to a large run area that they would have access to all the time. I like the enclosures shown here for better adequate outdoor housing:
[FONT=&quot]http://pinterest.com/catcatxx/rabbit-housing-wall-of-fame/[/FONT]

Many of us here use wood pellets for litter. You could put those in a litter tray and put a hay rack over it so that bunny has to climb in the box to get to the hay. This will encourage her to 'go' in the litter.

It's good for them to eat hay, so even if you decide to use something else for bedding elsewhere in the cage, at least they'll still get their hay.

On a side note, is your girl spayed? I realize the boy you plan to get is neutered, but she may need to be spayed in order for her to even consider accepting him. Girls are notoriously territorial (especially when still hormonal). It's usually advised that you take her on "bunny dates" if you hope to bond them. There is no guarantee at all that they will get along. Just want you to know in case you need to be prepared to house them separately. Rescues are good about allowing trial dates. Then if a particular boy doesn't get along with your girl, they will allow you to exchange him for another.

A browse around this site will show plenty of problems people have had in attempting to bond bunnies.:cry4: ---just something to keep in mind.

For more specifics an alternate bedding options, someone else will need to chime in. I don't use bedding with indoor bunnies.

 

[Bonsai]

Thank you for the reply!

I was wanting to make the hutch, both enclosures included, 6ft x 3ft x 3 ft. The divider would take about 3 inches away, but the bunnies would both get time to run around in an attached fence for a while each day so I don't think that would bother them too much. I just plugged the dimensions on the hutch I posted into a MM > inches converter and wow... The hutch looks bigger than it really is! Its 3 feet long unless I had a blonde moment. x_x That is WAY too small for two rabbits. Maybe one, but definitely not two! I intended to sort of alter the size to suit my needs, too.

Would it be a good idea to make hutches out of large dog kennels? Heidi's temporary cage is made out of a large dog kennel/cage/thing. She has tons of room in it and it is pretty easy to clean. Is there any way I could attach a dropping pan to one? The main problem with it now is that the mess all goes onto the ground and in its current location, is difficult to clean; if I can get it to fall in a dropping pan of some sort, I can easily keep mess at bay. My family is a bit "anti-smell", which is strange considering their chickens stink badly, but I have to be able to keep droppings under control. We tried using a kiddie pool to capture dropping but... Yeah. It was very, very difficult to clean out. The cage was clean but cleaning up the droppings under her cage was another matter entirely. Especially when it rained... Ick.

I will be getting Heidi fixed later this year. She isn't fixed yet because things always seemed to interfere. Last year, my sister dropped cats on us when I was going to get her fixed, leaving no room for her to stay inside until she recovered. I refuse to let her stay outside the 3~4 weeks following surgery, so I just had to postpone it. I wouldn't be letting them be around eachother - other than seeing/smelling one another through the insert in the hutch - until both their hormones have settled down. Heidi is fairly territorial, she thumped at one of our cats from her pen when I was switching out her food bowls once so she is very protective of her turf. She doesn't mind me moving stuff in her cage or anything like that, but I imagine she'd feel differently about another rabbit.

In the event little boy and Heidi don't get along even after numerous attempts to bond, I'm thinking dog crate/box/kennel things (What ARE those called? Its the black wire things you put your dogs in, hehe) fashioned into a hutch might be a better remedy to this. That way if they don't like eachother, that's fine. If they do, that's fine, too - I can just push the kennels together and they can choose to sleep in one cage or separate. Does that seem plausible?

Is it also possible to add a second tier to a dog... kennel thing... or would that be a bad idea? I've noticed Heidi has SO much space left in her's and its such a shame to waste all that space, you know? I feel like I could give her something more there. The Nethie will be a lot smaller than her (She's about 4lb~5lb) so he would definitely appreciate more use of space, I think.

Also, I did look at adoption first before settling on a breeder. All the rescues I could find would only adopt to indoor homes. I can definitely understand why and I respect that. I would probably expect the same in their position, my animals are very dear to me so they get the best care I can possibly provide; if I'm letting someone else take one of my animals, I expect them to do their best by them as well. I spend more on my animals than myself because they give me back tenfold in affection and love than what I give them in money! But I don't get more than I can handle, of course. If I got every animal I wanted, I'd be overrun. Two cats and two bunnies, please and thanks - that is my limit!

Anywho, adoption was my preferred method. A lot of rabbits in my area are bred for meat so there's not really that much adoption going on. All the groups were a few hours' drive away and with our car in the shop now from someone rear-ending us, I'm less willing to go long distances these days. I wish adoption was a method I could use, honestly. I'd rather give another bunny a chance - and it would likely be easier in bonding - but my situation is one that it can't be helped. I'm hoping in the next year that I can bring my two inside.

I imagine if I can figure out where to put the cages that it can be done, I just don't trust my cats (and the cats my sister brought us...) around them at all. Milo has met Heidi before (I had to bring her in on a very cold night) and he didn't care that much. He just curled up on my lap and watched her as if to say "What IS that thing?!", but he didn't treat her like "prey". Still don't fully trust him, of course. My door is easy for kitties to open, too, so that needs fixed... All in all, I'm hoping to eventually bring them inside. Outside is temporary.

 

[Nancy McClelland]

I'd stay with hay for the bedding--bunnies don't appreciate changes in their lives. A long time ago I built a coop in the country for my parents and they had all kinds of wild critters. I used a heavier guage and smaller mesh wire, and double walled everything, so the were two door to open and wire almost 4 inches apart so no critter would find it to be easy pickings. Worked great.

 

[Bonsai]

Thank you for the suggestion! I'll propose that to my dad and see if he can help me do something like that. It sounds pretty solid, too. The chicken wire around Heidi's cage has kept everything out so far, but I don't think it will do so well under the carport.

 

[Blue eyes]

Thank you for the reply!

Would it be a good idea to make hutches out of large dog kennels? Heidi's temporary cage is made out of a large dog kennel/cage/thing. She has tons of room in it and it is pretty easy to clean. Is there any way I could attach a dropping pan to one? The main problem with it now is that the mess all goes onto the ground and in its current location, is difficult to clean; if I can get it to fall in a dropping pan of some sort, I can easily keep mess at bay. My family is a bit "anti-smell",

-- You had mentioned a litter pan before (I think). Is she litter trained? A litter trained bun makes clean up a breeze. I personally don't like the drop pans and think they make way more work. My buns (as you know) are inside, but I have a solid floor cage with a litter pan and I clean out the cage twice a week. It takes all of 5 minutes tops. I just sweep the floor and change out the litter box -- simple as that. Being inside buns, we can't have their cage be smelly. They are in the family room and honestly do not smell. I guess I am picturing my cage and trying to figure out why your outside one would be having any issue with that. If you have a photo of your current set-up, that would be helpful.

I will be getting Heidi fixed later this year. I wouldn't be letting them be around eachother - other than seeing/smelling one another through the insert in the hutch - until both their hormones have settled down.

-- be careful. Bunnies can actually mate and/or bite and scratch each other through a wired divider. The divider should either be solid or have a couple inch gap (like a double divider).

In the event little boy and Heidi don't get along even after numerous attempts to bond, I'm thinking dog crate/box/kennel things (What ARE those called? Its the black wire things you put your dogs in, hehe) fashioned into a hutch might be a better remedy to this. That way if they don't like eachother, that's fine. If they do, that's fine, too - I can just push the kennels together and they can choose to sleep in one cage or separate. Does that seem plausible?

Is it also possible to add a second tier to a dog... kennel thing... or would that be a bad idea?

--there are quite a few here on RO that use the XL dog crates for a rabbit cage. And, yes, some add a second tier for extra space. My opinion is that a cage that size is not large & roomy in and of itself. They are still fine and usable IF permanently attached to a large run or if bunnies are given several hours daily of exercise. My indoor cage isn't much larger than the XL crates either BUT, the door is left open from morning til midnight. Those XL crates are used for indoor bunnies too. Often people will attach an x-pen around them to give bun more roaming room. Usually the crates themselves are used only for confining bunny during the night (though many allow them that x-pen area 24/7.)


I'm hoping in the next year that I can bring my two inside.

-- Yay! Here's a site on Indoor Rabbits.

(I inserted my responses in purple above, but had to write something here, outside the quote, in order for it to post. )

 

[Bonsai]

I do have a litter pan for her but she is... Hit and miss litter trained. She seems to switch corners to potty in when I put the pan there... Not sure if maybe I'm misunderstanding which corner she is preferring. The biggest mess comes from Heidi soiling the hay and then it falls through the cracks (her cage is made of the black mesh stuff - no solid bottom. The gaps were too big so I put another layer of smaller gauge wire under it so that if she pushes all her hay off of it, her foot won't get hung). Right now, her cage is set on a base a few feet above ground and the mess isn't that bad, it can be raked away. When I move her under the car port, I am hoping her cage will be flat on the ground with protective fencing around it when I am not out there. But because the cage will be on the floor, that means any droppings/soiled hay will get hung underneath or between the bars of the cage - making it a wee bit messy.

I am going to get an x-pen for them. I am selling produce this summer - since nowhere around here is hiring - and will be out there for many hours straight so that entire time, they will be outside their cage. I'll do my studying/anything that need not be done in the house, out there with them the rest of the year - so they'll get quite a bit of out of cage time! Unless I'm sick, they won't be cooped up in there.

Is there anything you do to control urine odor? Their poop isn't that stinky but the urine... Is pretty strong. That seems to be my grandmother's biggest argument against them; if I could somehow manage that, and get my sister to take her cats back, I think it would be easy as pie to get them brought inside.

I actually read a warning about rabbits biting one another through the mesh and because of their size difference, I was going to have it be a layer of wire then three inches between the second layer of wire - then they'd have to go through two layers of wire and 3in to do any damage. So it would essentially be a 3 inch space sandwiched by two layers of wire. But now that I've compared price and pros and cons, I believe a second kennel cage would be the best route for the Nethie's cage. He'll be small enough that he could utilize a second tier/perch. I saw this and really liked the idea:

I'm not sure Heidi could make use of it quite so well because she is a little heavier, so I may instead make her a large nesting box with a ramp on it. Then she can get on top of her box if she wants to and get a bit of altitude. My biggest fear is her falling off the second tier/the tier coming loose somehow and then she gets hurt. The Nethie will be about half her size so I'm not nearly as worried about him knocking it loose.

If I do go with the dog kennels, I will probably keep them about 6 inches apart so there shouldn't be any worry about one hurting the other unless they are especially talented and flexible. Kennels are sounding better to me the more I look at them and think on 'em...

I've looked at some kennels but I can't seem to find any with the thicker, reinforced bars on it that Heidi's has. She isn't able to chew through this one (the selling point for me) and some of the kennels look downright flimsy! This one has some reasonable reviews, I think, but do you guys think its tough enough?:

http://www.petco.com/product/13752/Remington-Dog-Kennels.aspx

I'm not sure what brand Heidi's is, I looked all over and couldn't find a label or any indicator on who made it. Or maybe I just missed it. I just don't like the wire bottom on it all that much; I give her plenty of hay to keep off the wires, but the gaps are just a tad too big for my liking. The mesh underneath the wires fixes that, but also makes things a little more difficult to clean because poo gets stuck in it. Is there anything I could put in there to make an easier to clean bottom if not a dropping tray?

 

[Blue eyes]

This RO thread has a photo of a kennel as cage (scroll down):
http://www.rabbitsonline.net/f69/2013-cages-youve-made-73877/index2.html
You can see how they have the floor set with that cage.
I know there are more photos on here...somewhere. I'll take a look around.

You can see other indoor set-ups also on that thread. Many have upper levels. The upper levels are fine for even large bunnies. They don't even need a ramp. They can hop right up.

Spayed buns litter train much more easily and the urine odor is less.:yahoo: So once your girl is done, that should help.
The wood pellets work great for controlling odor. As I said, my rabbits' litter box does not smell at all. People come in and don't know we have rabbits until they actually see them hopping about. Yesterdays News unscented litter also works well. It just cost more than the wood pellets.

For ease of cleaning, a solid floor works well. The wire bottoms, as you are finding, get stuff trapped inside. You can see the bottom of the xxl dog crate at that link above and how she set that up.

Have you looked on amazon for the xl crates? You'll need to check how wide the space is between the bars. Some can be wide enough for a small bunny's head to fit through.


...ahhh, here I found a photo by Yannikan (RO member)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/yannikin/7018176529/in/photostream

 

[Bonsai]

Wow, I love Yannikan's setup! Its so neat and tidy, and I love that the second tier doesn't have the "open space". Looks easy enough for even ME to put together and that is definitely saying something! I did not inherit my dad's woodworking skills.

Anywho, I found a crate I like! I looked through reviews and most people seem to like it and the bars seem fairly thin rather than wide. Thin but tall, which I think is good. I don't really know how big a Nethie's head is so I can't really judge if the bars are too wide for him, haha. But here's the crate:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000OX89XI/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

It says the mesh is "10, 11, 12" gauge. Seems a little vague... The spacing is "1&1/2in x 3&3/8in x 1&1/2in x 6in". I think that sounds okay? I'm assuming the 6in is the height; the other measurements don't sound too big do they? I figured if he was tiny enough to fit his head in the mesh when I get him in August, I can always fit a piece of wire or mesh over the sides and tie it tightly so he won't be able to get his widdle head stuck. (I hope) I'm not sure if you can tell anything about measurements of a rabbit from a picture, but this is the picture the breeder sent me:

(I squee everytime I see the picture - I'm super excited! He looks a bit grumpy in the picture, hehe)

I want to say he's pretty tiny... Now I'm not sure if the gaps are small enough. ): But I don't want to get a smaller cage for him - the XL is as small as I'm willing to go.

I'm excited to get Heidi fixed and work toward getting them "accepted" to come inside. The biggest obstacle is that my family doesn't view rabbits like pets. They're "livestock" moreso to them than pets. Seems like it is a common idea here in the south. When I asked some people at a feed store if they knew any good bunny vets to have rabbits fixed by a couple years ago, they looked at me like I had grown a second head!

 

[Blue eyes]

I looked at the link you provided. The spacings are 1 1/2" x3 3/8" OR 1 1/2" x 6". So those should be just fine. The height of the openings vary, but the width is always 1 1/2" which shouldn't be large enough for a head to fit through (unless baby is real young).

He's just too cute!! What a ball of fluff!

 

[Bonsai]

Thank you so much for the reply! I was sick this week so I didn't get to reply too promptly. I'm reassured now that I know his little head won't get stuck in the spacings. He'll be about 10~11wks old when I get him in August, so I think he'll be a decent sized baby. Or at least big enough that he isn't awkwardly teeny-tiny lol.

I know! He's so adorable, I can't even wrap my head around it yet. The breeder sent me a second picture (I requested weekly updates on him via picture, I am so needy - but they're going toward his baby album and she didn't mind to provide them!) but I'll have to resize it on my other computer before I post it. The pic is huge! You can actually see his eyes in this one, too. I can't wait to see how his sable develops. If it fills out dark like his daddy's, I'll be ecstatic.