HAPPILY RESOLVED: Calling on breeders for help....

[TinysMom]

As many of you may have noticed - I asked about "flopsy" yesterday. I found Valerie laying on her side in her cage - she did not appear to have any damaged limbs or a broken back or anything. I found her shortly after 4 am - she passed away about 8 am.

I'm at a loss now because her sister Bandita is starting to show the same symptoms. So I'm going to share some things from the last few days/weeks and see if y'all can help me. I suspect I'm going to lose Bandita no matter what I find out - but maybe I can save someone else...I don't know.

• A couple of weeks ago - about 15 of my 150 rabbits went off their feed. There was no sense to who went off and who didn't.....they were in 4 locations....fed by 2 different people....different air supply (sorta) for them and some of them had one type of hay while others had another type of hay. There was some talk about the possibility of it being a virus (on the infirmary board) At that time - neither Mochi nor her babies appeared to be affected.
  • Currently - I have about 5 that are not eating as much as usual....but they are willing to eat hay even if they aren't eating pellets.
• On Saturday, I removed Mochi and the two smallest babies from the babies they had been living with. The babies were 8 weeks and 2 days old. Four of the babies are Mochi's biological babies - four of them were foster babies.
• Early this morning, I lost Val suddenly to something that we're not 100% sure of. We suspected "flopsy"....we suspected "hypoglycemia" and we suspected that it was a weaning issue of a gut that just wasn't transitioning well. I also considered the food and hay but everyone else appeared to be doing well.
• When I fed the remaining 5 babies tonight - I noticed that Bandita sat in the back of the cage and didn't go to the food. We took her out to examine her and noticed that she felt thinner than she had been and she didn't feel quite right. I don't mean that she had bloat or anything - but she was sort of wobbly and just not herself.
  • We put her back in with Mochi and the two smallest babies and Mochi and the others have been grooming her. She is getting more wobbly in spite of eating something and drinking some homemade pedialyte that was for rehydrating rabbits.
  • I honestly do not think she is going to make it another 12-24 hours. I can't say why except to say she does not look good. We just gave her a bit of benebac to see if that will help her.
• We checked the four remaining babies - of which two are Mochi's and two are the foster babies. Splash is doing fine - she was out of the cage binkying and having a blast. She has good weight to her and she is eating good. Splash's sibling has a bit of a poopy butt and will be getting a butt bath in a bit. The baby also felt a bit small and I am going to give it some benebac and supplement in a bit.

My questions are:

• Has anyone lost babies due to weaning issues - at NINE weeks of age? (I've lost them around six weeks - but NINE weeks?)
• Will I most likely lose all of Mochi's litter? (I'm already bawling my eyes out about losing Val - my 2nd favorite and the fact I will most likely lose Bandita - my first favorite)
• Any suggestions? I've used benebac, the homemade pedialyte, fresh hay...I'm open to hearing from y'alls experiences.

Thank you for your time in reading this.

 

[RAL Rabbitry]

Two years ago I had a bad batch of feed. I had about 60 rabbits then and

1/3 of them got the runs, 1/3 of them just quit eating the pellets but did not

get the runs and 1/3 of them kept eating the pellets and were fine. I lost

two weaning age babies, a brood doe and a 4 month old junior right away.

Over the course of the next couple of weeks I lost another brood doe and

a couple more babies that were just starting to eat when the initial incedent

occured. Feed issues don't go away immediately and they don't effect every

rabbit the same way.

If you are using the feed from the mill run as when they got sick before I would

be suspicious of the feed.

Roger

 

[BlueGiants]

Sorry you're going through this Peg. I read the article about "flopsy" very closely.

Yes, I've lost babies in one litter at 9-10 weeks, similar symptoms. I've tried Critical Care, Bene-Bac, Pedialyte, Nutrical, Mylanta (calcium/antacid), Simethicone and even Kaopectate. (If they had diarrhea, and I caught it early, the 1/2cc Kaopectate worked! I was desperate!). But a couple just faded away. No diarrhea, no bloating, no symptoms, except for lethergy and limpness... I'm not sure why or if anything I did helped.A fewmade it,a fewdidn't. (May have to look into the AVED that Pam was mentioning if I see it again. Certainly won't continue that line if it repeats.)

I'm in the process of switching over to a new food. (NOT by choice!) Andyesterday 2 of the Flemish babies (8 1/2weeks old) started sitting in a back corner and not moving around. But they were slightly bloated. I gave them Critical Careand gave them eacha few drops ofSimethicone last night, and they seem much better this morning. They got more simethicone drops this morning. (Just in case.) Don't know if it's the new food or something else. I'll be keeping a close eye on the litter for now.

 

[TinysMom]

Bandita is still with us - but she is worse. Robin is giving her pedialyte right now along with some more simethicone. I'm about to check her over again.....but she pretty much has been propping herself up against the cage to keep from falling over it looks like....

I did put some critical care in her cage last night and she ate some and she was eating some hay too.

Ever notice that it seems to be your favorites that get ill?

 

[BlueGiants]

Most definitely! It's always the favorite, most promising, best ones...

 

[polly]

geez Peg when u gonna get a break I haven't seen it in babies but i had a doe that went like that it came on very quickly fine one day not the next. Its like a weakness we thought just from not eating. I would keep up esp on fluids have you got any sub Q maybe?

:hug:

 

[maherwoman]

Praying for your litter...ray:

Wish I had some brilliant advice, or even some info to add...but you know how un-proficient I am with health issues, much less BABY health issues...

But prayer is the best thing I can do right now...so that's what I'm doing...

 

[naturestee]

I'm so sorry, Peg.

Have you given her Nutri-Cal? It has Vitamin E, which I've heard can help with flopsy. I can't really think of anything else.

I really hope she pulls through, or that at least no others get sick.

 

[TinysMom]

We're about to do some sub-q on her.....and I think we've done just about everything....nutrical....critical care.....homemade pedialyte....regular pedialyte....benebac.

She's getting worse. She's now laying down and not moving ~ but she's not on her side yet.

I know that many breeders, pet owners, vet workers, etc would say, "now is the time to help her cross...".....but please understand something.

I can't give up. I have to keep trying. She is not grinding her teeth or anything like she is in pain. She is with her mama and two of the foster litter and they are grooming her and taking care of her......and we're going to keep fighting as hard as we can to save her.

Do I think we can save her?

Honestly.....no.

But I'm going to try....

Its all I know to do.

Its funny - I've had people ask me to get back into breeding....that they liked the fact that they knew of a breeder who wasn't in it for the money or reputation but for the love of the animals. I actually had almost started toying with the idea again.....almost.

This reminds me again of why I need to get out. I can't take this anymore....this has been a horrible year for me.

 

[TinysMom]

This is Bandita - so you all know what she looks like.....she can sit up here because she's angry at us...she just got 20 cc of sub-q fluids, a vitamin shot, .2 cc of vitamin E, nutrical, benebac and 1 cc of chiquita banana baby food. She is NOT happy with us at all....

She looks so good here - I just had to take the picture because it started to give me hope that maybe she would make it. We're going to do some baby food every hour or two (depending upon if we can watch her eating other things) and we'll do sub-q too. I know we went with a small dose this time but she didn't appear to be dehydrated so I don't want to overhydrate her and I wanted to see if the sub-q fluids would bring on any changes in her behavior.

I'm out the door now to get new food...the dreaded * brand I've avoided now for so long.

 

[TinysMom]

I meant to add this about the feed......one of the reasons I continued to use it after I bought a new batch (I checked the delivery/milling dates with the feed store owner) is that I mix into it calf mana, oats, wheat or barley, etc - so I thought that maybe there was enough other stuff in there to buy myself some time if it was the feed since I wasn't sure that was what the issue was and some were saying it was a virus.

 

[naturestee]

PEG! What did you to do her ears! LOL!

Hugs to both of you.:hug:

 

[TinysMom]

She's angry and has them pulled back.

She's also laying down now...can't get up....we're gonna try to syringe feed her some more in a bit but it isn't looking good at all...

 

[TinysMom]

It is almost 1 am and I'm about to head to bed. I thought I'd share an update on Bandita.

If she was in a hospital, I'd be saying that her condition went from "critical" to "serious"....or "very serious".

Still yet....I'm starting to maybe have a shred of hope.

She has wet stools but not diaherrea.....and her tummy is feeling really full and that concerns me because she hasn't eaten a lot from us. Still yet - I have seen her nibble on things in her cage so it is possible that she is eating something.

I just gave her about 5 cc of banana baby food mixed with a touch of critical care to thicken it up a bit. She also took some more simethicone....and she took a bit of pedialyte.

However - the two most encouraging things are .... she peed...and it wasn't just a little drop or two...

AND....


She seems to have full use of her legs again. Whereby before she was wobbly and used her front legs to back herself up against something so she could sit up....now she just sits up on her own. She spent over 10 minutes just sitting in a posed position and grooming herself while I watched. She was soooo mad at me that her fur got a bit dirty and she was so mad at me when I tried to syringe feed her - she was extremely alert and ready to fight.

I will still not be surprised if I walk out in the morning and find she has relapsed or passed....I don't want to sound like a totally negative person because I'm not. But I've told her that I'm gonna fight for her as much as I can....and I think she's trying to fight this too.

For those who are wondering - she has been getting vitamin E every few hours - about .1 cc at a time. She's had about .3 cc since I tried to feed her earlier this evening and she was wobbly.....about .5 cc today overall (plus what we gave her last night before we got it into a syringe to measure it).

She's also been having benebac, nutrical, and just about anything else I can think of to get fluids and foods down her and get some calories in her.

I will update on how she is later.

 

[TinysMom]

She made it through the night and is alert this morning and sitting up. She's still a bit wobbly but she appears to be as good as she was last night - or maybe better. Her tummy still concerns me and she is still getting simethicone and a bit of benebac....but her eyes are looking good and she is alert. It is noticeable that she has put on a bit of weight again to be closer to what her weight was when I removed mama from the cage a week ago.

I'm really in shock that she's made it this far. I want to pick her up and cuddle her and love on her and cry into her fur....but she doesn't really want to be held.

What bothers me is she was having obvious paralysis in her hind end yesterday - or something was keeping her from having control. She had to use her front end to back herself up so she could sit upright...

Yet now? She has full range of movement even if she is a bit slow and wobbly.

 

[JadeIcing]

Fingers crossed, and prayers headed your way.

 

[TinysMom]

As I type this, Bandita is playing on the couch with Robin....she just ate about a 1 1/2" slice of banana (and looked at us like, "why don't I have those ALL the time??") and she is not binkying - but definitely playing.

She has full motor control and full body function.

I'm still being guardedly optimistic about her future.....I'm scared I'll come out in the morning and find she's passed.

But if you looked at her now - you would not know she was wobbling last night....

 

[Bo B Bunny]

I'm not a breeder but I'm curious and I think throwing out ideas that come to mind is a good thing, so I'll ask:

Do bunnies ever get hypoglycemic? could she be lacking sugar or something and the banana is helping?

She's SO cute, Peg, it's killing me - her little face and being so mad is just hilarious!

I hope and pray she comes through this.

 

[timetowaste]

she looks like one of those really irritating furbys!

 

[TinysMom]

Bo B Bunny wrote:

I'm not a breeder but I'm curious and I think throwing out ideas that come to mind is a good thing, so I'll ask:

Do bunnies ever get hypoglycemic? could she be lacking sugar or something and the banana is helping?

She's SO cute, Peg, it's killing me - her little face and being so mad is just hilarious!

I hope and pray she comes through this.

Randy suspected that Val was hypoglycemic but she passed away too quickly for us to know.

I have been talking with Pamela Alley - a vet tech who has been breeding for 26 years now....and she suspects...let me find what she wrote...

You generally won't see liver cocci, nor smell it. You'll see buns weakening, losing weight and condition, going off feed...in other words, it fits. A necropsy will tell you if this is the issue. I would STRONGLY recommend switching away from the Vanodine. You are not the only person who has had problems while using it, and I have yet to see any scientific anything that backs it up. Try Nolvasan (chlorhexidine diacetate, if I recall correctly) or bleach with a very thorough rinsing. Another possibility in your area is good old plague, or even tularemia, which is human-contagious and dangerous. Any signs of fleas or exposure to wild rodents/rabbits during exercise time on the ground? Myxomatosis is not, (far as I know) found in your area. If you know differently, please tell me! Benebac will not help with that particular viral problem. And yes, intestinal cocci and its diarrhea REEK. Liver cocci, though, often shows no diarrheal outbreak, and thus there is no smell. You will need to treat for a full two weeks on ALL the rabbits to get the stuff eliminated with reasonable certainty.
She also stated in a later email that liver cocci would make the rabbits have lower levels of vitamins A & E....which could explain why the vitamin E helped pull Bandita out of this.

We're going to treat the whole herd for liver cocci (just in case) for 14 days. She's getting me dosages, etc. now.

We've really gone through everything we can think of and this is the most likely option.

I do think that Bandita has a very good chance now of making it. She's back to her normal self.....I just wish I could have saved Val.

However, as someone else pointed out to me - perhaps Val's death was to help save the rest of the herd...to help point us to what was wrong.

That doens't make it much easier to accept....but it does help me to keep myself from beating myself up over it....some...