Baby Juliet
Well-Known Member
I only have pets but like to know what makes a show rabbit. Please tell me from these pictures what are their good points and bad points if you're the judge.
Good and bad.
- Thread starter Baby Juliet
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Hayley411
Well-Known Member
What breed of rabbit are they?
~Hayley
~Hayley
Baby Juliet
Well-Known Member
Lionhead or Lionhead mixed.
TinysMom
Well-Known Member
I want to start out by saying that I hate questions like this - because whenever I tend to answer them - people get upset and offended at me. I tend to give them the same answer I would give to a breeder if we were standing side by side at a show looking at bunnies - without factoring in the emotional aspect of "this is their pet".
Then I hear the "well...I'd rather have a friendly bunny or a cute bunny than worry about X, Y or Z".
I say all this to say - I'm going to take your question and answer it as if I was talking to a breeder who was looking at your rabbits and deciding whether to buy them for show. I'm going to give the good points and the bad points and not mince words. But by my answer - I'm not saying that your rabbits are or aren't good rabbits - I'm not evaluating their "worth" as a bunny. I'm commenting only on how I feel they would do on the show table in my area.
Ok?
I like the head shape of the lighter colored bunny on the far left in the last two pictures. It is not as rounded as the head shapes are going towards now...but it isn't the older style wedge shape either.
I like the balance of the ears to the size of the rabbit. Nowadays the ears are going to more of "cat-like" ears rather than the longer "mule ears" as I call them. I will be sharing pictures to show what I mean in a minute.
As far as their body "type" - it is hard to see their quality. I like short-bodied lionheads that tend to sit upright because they are so short. The longer bodied rabbits tend to lay like your rabbits are laying. Once again - I think you'll see what I mean when I show photos.
My biggest concern is their mane - or lack thereof. I can see the mane - but it is not full and dense as it should be. I suspect they are single mane lionhead (mixes). From what I can tell - the rabbit in the second picture should keep his/her mane because it looks like the wool has a crimp to it. If the others have a crimping to the wool in the mane - they should keep it when they molt.
When I was starting out - I did show some rabbits with the same type of mane and the comments I got were that the mane was not dense enough and those rabbits never did as well in the shows as other rabbits.
Now - I haven't done a lot of shows - maybe 6-10 or so....but in each show - usually with 15 or more lionheads - I have taken either BOB, BOS or BOTH in the same show - against 3-4 other competitors.
Based upon the comments judges have given me - I have an eye for type (my mentor trained me for this) and the judges have usually chosen my "typey" rabbits over the ones with the fuller manes - but not always.
It is also important to remember that each time you show - you are basically paying for that judge's opinion on that particular day on that particular rabbit in that particular condition. I've shown in double shows where I won BOB with a rabbit that was DQ'd in the next show by another judge. The DQ? "The fur is too soft". Seriously - the first judge loved the soft wool/fur - the second judge felt it was too soft even though they loved the rabbit's coloring and mane and felt like if the fur were a bit coarser - the rabbit would've taken BOB.
Now here are some photos of rabbits you may want to see:
In these first two photos - notice how upright the rabbits sit:
This is what I look for when it comes to type - here is another example:
Pow Wow had an excellent combination of mane and ears and type in that photo.
This is a longer lionhead posing - you can see more space between the table and its belly - but notice the wonderful mane:
Here's another longer rabbit - but notice the mane and how dense it is:
Finally - look at Cocoa's ears - the shape and size...this seems to be what many judges and breeders are going for now...
I am going to post this before my computer shuts down on me - and then add some recommended links if you want to learn more about lionheads.
Please understand though - it seemed as though you were asking me what was good and bad - and so I went beyond the "cute lionhead" I would normally do for someone asking - because most people don't want to hear all the details.
Then I hear the "well...I'd rather have a friendly bunny or a cute bunny than worry about X, Y or Z".
I say all this to say - I'm going to take your question and answer it as if I was talking to a breeder who was looking at your rabbits and deciding whether to buy them for show. I'm going to give the good points and the bad points and not mince words. But by my answer - I'm not saying that your rabbits are or aren't good rabbits - I'm not evaluating their "worth" as a bunny. I'm commenting only on how I feel they would do on the show table in my area.
Ok?
I like the head shape of the lighter colored bunny on the far left in the last two pictures. It is not as rounded as the head shapes are going towards now...but it isn't the older style wedge shape either.
I like the balance of the ears to the size of the rabbit. Nowadays the ears are going to more of "cat-like" ears rather than the longer "mule ears" as I call them. I will be sharing pictures to show what I mean in a minute.
As far as their body "type" - it is hard to see their quality. I like short-bodied lionheads that tend to sit upright because they are so short. The longer bodied rabbits tend to lay like your rabbits are laying. Once again - I think you'll see what I mean when I show photos.
My biggest concern is their mane - or lack thereof. I can see the mane - but it is not full and dense as it should be. I suspect they are single mane lionhead (mixes). From what I can tell - the rabbit in the second picture should keep his/her mane because it looks like the wool has a crimp to it. If the others have a crimping to the wool in the mane - they should keep it when they molt.
When I was starting out - I did show some rabbits with the same type of mane and the comments I got were that the mane was not dense enough and those rabbits never did as well in the shows as other rabbits.
Now - I haven't done a lot of shows - maybe 6-10 or so....but in each show - usually with 15 or more lionheads - I have taken either BOB, BOS or BOTH in the same show - against 3-4 other competitors.
Based upon the comments judges have given me - I have an eye for type (my mentor trained me for this) and the judges have usually chosen my "typey" rabbits over the ones with the fuller manes - but not always.
It is also important to remember that each time you show - you are basically paying for that judge's opinion on that particular day on that particular rabbit in that particular condition. I've shown in double shows where I won BOB with a rabbit that was DQ'd in the next show by another judge. The DQ? "The fur is too soft". Seriously - the first judge loved the soft wool/fur - the second judge felt it was too soft even though they loved the rabbit's coloring and mane and felt like if the fur were a bit coarser - the rabbit would've taken BOB.
Now here are some photos of rabbits you may want to see:
In these first two photos - notice how upright the rabbits sit:
This is what I look for when it comes to type - here is another example:
Pow Wow had an excellent combination of mane and ears and type in that photo.
This is a longer lionhead posing - you can see more space between the table and its belly - but notice the wonderful mane:
Here's another longer rabbit - but notice the mane and how dense it is:
Finally - look at Cocoa's ears - the shape and size...this seems to be what many judges and breeders are going for now...
I am going to post this before my computer shuts down on me - and then add some recommended links if you want to learn more about lionheads.
Please understand though - it seemed as though you were asking me what was good and bad - and so I went beyond the "cute lionhead" I would normally do for someone asking - because most people don't want to hear all the details.
TinysMom
Well-Known Member
Now for some resources to back up what I was sharing.
You may want to visit the North American Lionhead Rabbit Club's website:
http://www.lionhead.us/
Here are the winning lionheads from the 2008 lionhead Nationals show - so you can see what breeders are striving for (this is THE show to win at)...
http://www.lionhead.us/showinfoandphoto/pic_rabbits2008.htm
Every year breeders compete to get their lionheads in the auction for the show - the breeder gets 50% of the price and the club gets 50% of the price that the lionhead goes for. I know some have gone for $650 and up.
Want to see the ones that are currently competing to be in the auction? (Decisions haven't been made yet on who will be in). Don't forget to click on the lionheads to see more information about them - including pictures of their parents, etc.
http://www.lionhead.us/showinfoandphoto/nalrcliveauctionlist.htm
I have been looking at that list and almost wishing I were back in breeding - and had the money to bid. There are two or three there that I feel are outstanding.
Want to read the official standard to see what judges use to judge lionheads?
http://www.lionhead.us/aboutlionheads/LHStd09allCODcolors.html
Hope these links help - feel free to ask any questions!
You may want to visit the North American Lionhead Rabbit Club's website:
http://www.lionhead.us/
Here are the winning lionheads from the 2008 lionhead Nationals show - so you can see what breeders are striving for (this is THE show to win at)...
http://www.lionhead.us/showinfoandphoto/pic_rabbits2008.htm
Every year breeders compete to get their lionheads in the auction for the show - the breeder gets 50% of the price and the club gets 50% of the price that the lionhead goes for. I know some have gone for $650 and up.
Want to see the ones that are currently competing to be in the auction? (Decisions haven't been made yet on who will be in). Don't forget to click on the lionheads to see more information about them - including pictures of their parents, etc.
http://www.lionhead.us/showinfoandphoto/nalrcliveauctionlist.htm
I have been looking at that list and almost wishing I were back in breeding - and had the money to bid. There are two or three there that I feel are outstanding.
Want to read the official standard to see what judges use to judge lionheads?
http://www.lionhead.us/aboutlionheads/LHStd09allCODcolors.html
Hope these links help - feel free to ask any questions!
TinysMom
Well-Known Member
I want to give another example of type in a rabbit.
If you go to this page and look at the sire and dam at the bottom - you'll see a short-bodied typey rabbit (sire) and a longer lionhead (doe). I feel like the pictures really show the difference in type.
http://www.lionhead.us/showinfoandphoto/catalina.htm
If you go to this page and look at the sire and dam at the bottom - you'll see a short-bodied typey rabbit (sire) and a longer lionhead (doe). I feel like the pictures really show the difference in type.
http://www.lionhead.us/showinfoandphoto/catalina.htm
Baby Juliet
Well-Known Member
Thanks for all your help. Looks like most of the mane is under the chin and on the chest.
With large manes can they groom themselves or do they have to be groomed? Do they have to be trained to pose or are those natural poses?
With large manes can they groom themselves or do they have to be groomed? Do they have to be trained to pose or are those natural poses?
TinysMom
Well-Known Member
Baby Juliet wrote:
Rabbits with a large mane can and do groom themselves - but breeders will also groom them also to keep the mane free from mats.
Many breeders will start training their rabbits to pose at about 4-6 weeks of age if they plan to show that rabbit. However, I have found over the years that a rabbit that is "typey" - will frequently sit in that show pose because that is the most comfortable way for them to sit. I think it has to do with the fact that they are "short" in body and to lay down with their head on the ground just isn't as comfortable.
I will try to take photos today of a chestnut baby in my recent litter. The baby is 3/4 lionhead and 1/4 something else. In fact - I'll take pictures of this baby (a chestnut) and its littermates and try to show you the differences between them.
If I was still showing lionheads - I might consider showing this one even though it is a mix. It has a really nice stance to it - a rounded head with the cat-like ears. I'm VERY pleased (and this was not a planned breeding - mama jumped in the sick-bunny pen w/ the daddy when I wasn't in the room). In fact - even though it isn't fully lionhead as far as pedigree would go - I'd almost consider breeding it - because its like it took the "typey" part of the parents.
The other four in the litter - are long in body - rarely sit up like this one - have the longer mule ears, etc.
I'll try to do that later today for you and that might help.
Rabbits with a large mane can and do groom themselves - but breeders will also groom them also to keep the mane free from mats.
Many breeders will start training their rabbits to pose at about 4-6 weeks of age if they plan to show that rabbit. However, I have found over the years that a rabbit that is "typey" - will frequently sit in that show pose because that is the most comfortable way for them to sit. I think it has to do with the fact that they are "short" in body and to lay down with their head on the ground just isn't as comfortable.
I will try to take photos today of a chestnut baby in my recent litter. The baby is 3/4 lionhead and 1/4 something else. In fact - I'll take pictures of this baby (a chestnut) and its littermates and try to show you the differences between them.
If I was still showing lionheads - I might consider showing this one even though it is a mix. It has a really nice stance to it - a rounded head with the cat-like ears. I'm VERY pleased (and this was not a planned breeding - mama jumped in the sick-bunny pen w/ the daddy when I wasn't in the room). In fact - even though it isn't fully lionhead as far as pedigree would go - I'd almost consider breeding it - because its like it took the "typey" part of the parents.
The other four in the litter - are long in body - rarely sit up like this one - have the longer mule ears, etc.
I'll try to do that later today for you and that might help.
TinysMom
Well-Known Member
Since I already have these photos - I thought I would share them....
The first two photos are of a brother/sister I bought from Washington state in 2007 from Legendary Lionheads. Kaela - the daughter - has a natural eye for lionheads and type and I expect her to be a top breeder someday.
It is obvious she has posed them a bit - BUT - you can also tell by looking at them that they are short in body when you look at the third picture of another rabbit that is in the same general age range...perhaps a bit older. Notice that this rabbit doesn't sit upright but stretches out. This is because it has a longer body.
Now - here is the doe from the 2nd picture as an adult:
The first photo shows her "normal" sitting position...
I want you to see her mane here - how long it is...
The first two photos are of a brother/sister I bought from Washington state in 2007 from Legendary Lionheads. Kaela - the daughter - has a natural eye for lionheads and type and I expect her to be a top breeder someday.
It is obvious she has posed them a bit - BUT - you can also tell by looking at them that they are short in body when you look at the third picture of another rabbit that is in the same general age range...perhaps a bit older. Notice that this rabbit doesn't sit upright but stretches out. This is because it has a longer body.
Now - here is the doe from the 2nd picture as an adult:
The first photo shows her "normal" sitting position...
I want you to see her mane here - how long it is...
TinysMom
Well-Known Member
By the way - here is the blue doe a few weeks after we got her (she is in picture #3) - you can see she is longer in body than the first doe if you look closely at the pictures.
TinysMom
Well-Known Member
One final thing this morning (can you tell I'm chatty??) - there are times when I would buy a longer rabbit to show or breed - here is an example of one that I bought - but I felt like she had an impressive mane and while her ears were a tad bit longer than I liked - they were in balance with the rest of her body:
Baby Juliet
Well-Known Member
Here what she looks like 6 weeks later, just a beard no wispy hair on top.
TinysMom
Well-Known Member
There are pictures of the top lionhead rabbits at lionhead nationals here:
http://www.lionhead.us/showinfoandphoto/09nationalopenshowreport.html
and here are the ones that were the auction rabbits:
http://www.lionhead.us/showinfoandphoto/nalrcliveauctionlist.htm
Maybe looking at those pictures will help you see some show-winning lionheads.
http://www.lionhead.us/showinfoandphoto/09nationalopenshowreport.html
and here are the ones that were the auction rabbits:
http://www.lionhead.us/showinfoandphoto/nalrcliveauctionlist.htm
Maybe looking at those pictures will help you see some show-winning lionheads.
Baby Juliet
Well-Known Member
Wow! I feel like the kid with a single scoop ice cream cone next to the kid with a triple scoop with sprinkles.
TinysMom
Well-Known Member
Baby Juliet wrote:
What a great way to describe the feeling. I used to feel that way sometimes too. I've always had judges tell me that my rabbits had great type and stuff - but they needed more mane.
Then I started studying the "show-winning rabbits" pictures that were posted on websites - and it helped me understand.
Now that I have some really pretty rabbits - I'm not showing anymore.
The competition for lionheads in the Penn/Ohio area is pretty intense - even NY state and stuff - there are some awesome breeders in that area. Oregon & Washington state also have awesome rabbits - Texas is catching up....but I feel like we've been behind in developing the show-quality rabbits from what I used to see and what I used to have.
One of my favorite breeders in Penn is Castle Gate Lionheads - owned by Lisa Brown. Her prices aren't usually outrageous and the quality of her rabbits is pretty cool - plus she's great at socializing them.
In Washington state - Nita and Kaela Shannon's Legendary Minis is another favorite.
If you want to get a show quality rabbit - study the photos on those sites and it will help you see what to look for...
What a great way to describe the feeling. I used to feel that way sometimes too. I've always had judges tell me that my rabbits had great type and stuff - but they needed more mane.
Then I started studying the "show-winning rabbits" pictures that were posted on websites - and it helped me understand.
Now that I have some really pretty rabbits - I'm not showing anymore.
The competition for lionheads in the Penn/Ohio area is pretty intense - even NY state and stuff - there are some awesome breeders in that area. Oregon & Washington state also have awesome rabbits - Texas is catching up....but I feel like we've been behind in developing the show-quality rabbits from what I used to see and what I used to have.
One of my favorite breeders in Penn is Castle Gate Lionheads - owned by Lisa Brown. Her prices aren't usually outrageous and the quality of her rabbits is pretty cool - plus she's great at socializing them.
In Washington state - Nita and Kaela Shannon's Legendary Minis is another favorite.
If you want to get a show quality rabbit - study the photos on those sites and it will help you see what to look for...
