Going to try to bond Ned and Phoebe Mae!

[SnowyShiloh]

The time has finally come to try to bond Phoebe Mae and Ned. I spent the evening refreshing my knowledge of bunny bonding by reading the articles linked here on RO.

Phoebe Mae is a 1 1/2 year old girl who was spayed back in January, and I don't know how old Ned is, but he was neutered when we got him a year ago. I'm a little nervous because back before Phoebe Mae was spayed (she was only 12 weeks old at the time!), I tried to introduce her and Skyler in our bedroom (where they'd never been before), and within about 10 seconds of them being together, Skyler (neutered) tried to mount Phoebe Mae, who flung him off, attacked him, then threw him off the bed. Fur was everywhere and he was bleeding from a couple of bites. She was still practically a baby and weighed half as much as him! Hopefully the spay has calmed her down. As for Ned, the last time he was with another bunny, the rabbit tore his one ear off and bit the tip off the other (this was at the animal shelter before we got him), so hopefully his encounter with her will go much better!

Okay, back to Phoebe Mae and Ned. They've been smelling each other and playing in the same area (not at the same time) for the past year. Their cages are about 15 feet apart and facing each other in our living room. My plan is to bring them out into the backyard Tuesday afternoon and put them in the big enclosure I made out of baby gates, with Ned in the carrier and Phoebe Mae loose. They can't bite each other through the carrier but will be able to smell each other.

Then Tuesday evening, I plan to put them both in carriers and take them for a car ride. Both of them get nervous during car rides. Paul will drive and I'll sit in the back seat with them. At some point should I open the carrier doors? I'm kind of afraid of being in the middle of a bunny brawl in a confined space like that and will probably bring along oven mitts and a piece of cardboard to separate them!

If the car ride goes well, the plan is to immediately take them back to the bunny enclosure and let them run around together. I'll be armed with the oven mitts, cardboard, a broom and a spray bottle. Both bunnies loooove to eat and the bunny enclosure is full of dandelion greens, so I'm hoping they'll both just go to town eating.

Plan sound okay?

 

[TinysMom]

I'd start now by switching them into each other's cages every 24 hours or so...but I am NOT the bonding expert by any means.

I just think that would get them used to the smell of the other rabbit before the car ride.

 

[SnowyShiloh]

Thanks for adding that, Peg! Forgot to say that I was planning to do that too. Maybe I should do that first? I was all excited to get started tomorrow, but I am willing to push it back a few days to do cage swaps!

 

[SnowyShiloh]

Paul and I just swapped their cages! They're both pretty curious about the new digs and I keep looking over at their cages and being surprised at seeing the wrong bunny.

 

[elrohwen]

Good luck!

For the car ride, I would bring something like a laundry basket or box. Put both bunnies into it as soon as the car starts moving. There's very little chance that they will fight or do anything other than sit very still while the car is moving. It's a great way to introduce them when you're afraid of fighting.

 

[SnowyShiloh]

Oh, gosh! The bunnies and I just spent 40 minutes in the yard. First, I let Phoebe Mae run around while Ned was in the carrier. She completely ignored him. Then I took a leap of faith and opened the carrier door... Neddie came out... bunnies ignored each other for about 5 minutes, both just chowing down on grass and dandelions. They slowly came together and were eating from the same dandelion plant for a while. I noticed a little ladybug right between them. It was so cute! Then Phoebe ate from a plant that was under Ned! They would spend a while apart, then hop back together. They seemed completely relaxed.

Then they went under my chair (of course!) and I couldn't see what happened, but a bunny fight broke out. Fur flying, growling, biting. I had to keep separating them with the NIC panel and was able to scoot Ned into the carrier. Brought them inside and checked them over for injuries. They both looked fine. As I was checking Ned's belly, the unthinkable happened. He wiggled all of a sudden, flipped over my shoulder and fell head first on the floor behind me :bawl: I picked him up to look him over again and he has blood in his mouth! Poor guy! That is the first time I have EVER dropped a bunny. I've had bunnies flip out on me when I've held them, but I've always managed to keep a grip on them. Poor Neddie fell from 5 feet. I hope he'll be okay! I'm more worried about him right now than how the intro went.

 

[SnowyShiloh]

My poor little Nedders. He's sitting in his cage, acting normal. The blood is gone. I really hope he'll be okay!

Now that I've had some time to think about it, I bet I know what happened. About 20 minutes into their encounter, Phoebs stuck her head under Ned's head so he'd groom her. He refused. I petted both bunnies and told them they were good babies and everything was fine. I'm not surprised that Phoebe wants to be the dominant one! I think that when they were under the chair, Ned tried to mount Phoebe Mae and she flipped out on him, just like she did with Skyler. This fight was actually less severe than with Skyler- only a couple of fur wads and no blood.

The plan now is to take them for a car ride in the laundry basket tomorrow night.

How do you think the intro went? I know it ended poorly (and I know that you're supposed to end bonding sessions on a good note, but I was afraid to let Ned out again), but does the fact that everything went well up until then mean anything? Did I push them too far by having them together for 40 minutes?

 

[Luluznewz]

From everything i've read and heard its very important not to allow rabbits to actually begin to fight. You should be standing right there with them in the early phases prepared with something to break them up, like a squirt bottle. If they actually start fighting it makes it harder to eventually bond them.

So next time I would suggest not walking away, even if they seem relaxed. I think initial bonding sessions should be more brief and more controlled.

 

[SnowyShiloh]

Hi Jessica, I didn't walk away at any point. I was within arms reach of them at all times that they were together- they didn't come near each other unless they were near me, and if they'd gone near each other NOT near me, I would have gone over to where they were. I got up from the chair as soon as they went underneath it, and the fight broke out in the time that I was standing up. They weren't alone, it was just poor timing. There was no sign (as far as I could tell) of anything bad up until the fight started and I had my NIC panel at the ready to separate them. I did not "allow" them to fight!

 

[undergunfire]

Is there anyway you can create a bonding pen for them?

Marlin and Ruby have this....

And I swap their cages every few days - so they spend 1 night and all day together in one another's cage.


Maybe I have been lucky with bonding - Molly escaped her pen and her & [free ranging] Morgan bonded instantly, even though I tried bonding sessions before in the tub & stuff and they always fought.

I know its never recommended, but Ruby the foster is 1.5 years old & not yet spayed (she came from a rescue & I offered to get it done) and literally is a spayed rabbit in temperament - uhm, maybe even more "spayed rabbit" then Molly is (who is actually spayed)....so I decided to just let her and Marlin run around together since I know Marlin's temperament very well (and I know how he acts with other rabbits) and got to know Ruby's well within 2 weeks. Anyway.....Marlin and Ruby act like the best of buds (Marlin humps a bit too much, but she lets it happen - maybe because shes actually not spayed?)....and I really think they are good friends now due to practically sharing the same cage (but not living together). I really think once she is spayed I can pretty much house them together after she heals (doubt a spay would change her personality right now, as shes past any hormone stages). Of course....all bunnies are VERY different!

 

[SnowyShiloh]

Amy, the bonding pen/side by side cages is a great idea, but unfortunately we don't have the space to put 2 big pens next to each other. We'll have to stick to swapping who's in what cage, then doing bonding sessions outside or upstairs on the bed.

I seem to have bunnies with tough personalities. Rory's reaction to seeing any other bunny is "attaaaaaack!" Phoebe Mae has a really dominant personality I think. She seems to do fine with other bunnies unless they try to dominate her. Tallulah had the sweetest personality- she just loooooved Rory even though he did everything in his power to hurt her.

I'm pretty encouraged by how well they did for most of today. Tomorrow is another day!

 

[JadeIcing]

Sounds like it went well. My best advice is not to give up. Keep at it. Even if some days are short sessions. I am crossing my fingers for you. Bonding can be fun and frustrating. LOL try bonding 4boys.

 

[SnowyShiloh]

Ali, thanks for the reply! We're going to try again today, but we're going to take them for a car ride before putting them in the bunny enclosure. I think the bunny enclosure is a good place to do this because it's outside of the house and neither bunny has been out there since last summer so I don't think they're territorial. Plus, they love going out there and spend pretty much the whole time eating the grass and dandelions I would like them to associate being together with having a nice time. Going to try to only bring them to the play yard when they're together!

 

[SnowyShiloh]

We went for a car ride tonight! The car ride was 10-15 minutes long. Poor bun buns. They don't like car rides But, it definitely worked! They were huddled together in the laundry basket on my lap. Phoebe put her head under Neddie's stomach a couple times and he put his head under her too. 0 sign of aggression or dominance from either. Tomorrow night we're going to take them for a short ride (5 minutes?), then plonk them in the outdoor bunny play yard together. I will, of course, be in the play yard too and within reach of them at all times, ready with my NIC panel and water spray bottle. I'll keep it to 15 minutes or so. I don't have a watch and yesterday didn't realize we'd been outside for 40 minutes until I came in and looked at the clock!

 

[elrohwen]

I think, like Jessica said, is to keep initial sessions more controlled. Doing it in a bathtub or the car will let you be right there to break anything up. Also, some bunnies are more likely to chase, and thus start a fight, in wide open areas. It's harder to chase in a laundry basket. Also, try to do sessions in a place they're not comfortable. If they go outside a lot and are both comfortable there, the bathtub might be better because it's slippery and new to them. The more you can throw them off their game, the less likely they are to fight.

Overall, I think you're doing a good job! The fact that they fought just means that they probably need more stressing sessions. Car rides are great - I would go for 30 minutes or so, then put them in the pen or bathtub together when you get home. Once they're doing well with this, you can move on from car rides to putting them in a laundry basket and shaking them around or putting them on the washing machine.

 

[SnowyShiloh]

Laura, funny- we kept the car ride fairly short because I didn't want the session to last too long! We were going to put them in the play yard after, but it rained and I didn't want soggy bunnies. The play yard is a good place to do bonding for us because they haven't been out there since last summer (Ned went out once a few days ago by himself, but that's it) and eating distracts them. I will consider making the play yard smaller though when we go out! It's about 10 feet by 8 feet, big enough for them to binky in. I made it from 2 play yards joined together and there's no reason I couldn't make it smaller since the panels are movable.

Unfortunately, we have neither a bath tub (shower stall instead) nor a washer or dryer, so I can't do either of those things The only neutral area in our tiny apartment is our bedroom, we could do sessions on the bed. They both play in the living room, bathroom and kitchen, so that's not neutral. We could actually put them in a really big storage bin! We have one that's almost as big as a bathtub. Really big! Maybe that would work Could even give it a shake every once in a while. My friend has volunteered her house too. They live like 20 minutes away, so the drive over would be great priming for the session!

 

[elrohwen]

You don't need a washing machine to do stressing - I just carried them around in the basket and shook them up a bit. A storage bin would work great too. You could shake them up, then leave them in for the session. If you find either of them is getting too nippy or starting fights, switching up where you do the bonding can sometimes make all the difference.

It sounds like the yard is a good place for you guys to continue if they're distracted and a little uncomfortable there. And it's neutral, which is great.

You can't really do too long of a car ride. The longer they're in the car snuggling quietly together, the better off you are. I know a rescue owner who swears on putting two new buns together and going on a multi-hour road trip and when you get home you'll have bonded buns. Haha. Not sure if it's really that easy, but it's worked well for her.

Once they're past the fighting stage, there will probably still be some humping, chasing, or nipping. Just keep an eye on it, but try to let them work things out for themselves and only break it up if they are starting a fight. I had a hard time sitting back and letting them figure things out, but it's an important step in the process for them to work it out. Anything that's not fighting is just them working out their communication.

 

[SnowyShiloh]

Last night's car ride was very short because Ned peed in the apple crate after 5 minutes (there was pee coming out the corners of the box, ew) so we had to come home. I wanted to put them in another container and go out again after cleaning up, but Paul didn't want to. Tonight we'll go for another drive!

We may be driving down to Anchorage in June to visit Paul's parents (7 hour drive), but they wouldn't be happy with us bringing the bunnies. It's weird, they love dogs, but think bunnies are filthy.

 

[elrohwen]

I always find that attitude strange as well. Sure the bunnies throw hay everywhere, but otherwise they are way cleaner than any dog I've ever had! No drool or mud all over

 

[SnowyShiloh]

Last night we had to skip our bunny drive, but we went out tonight! Only 20 minutes again, but better than nothing It's STILL raining here so I haven't let them play in the play yard. Hopefully Sunday will be different.

The bunnies usually snuggle in the car with Ned on top. I don't think it's so much because Phoebe Mae is scared and hiding as it is that Ned REALLY, REALLY wants to escape so won't sit flat in the box! They sure are cute together. My fiance got this photo of them once I brought them back in the house Ned is the white and gray one, Phoebs is the white and orange one.