getting impatient

[manda]

jeez its been over four months! i have been talking to a lady from the nashville bunny rescue. and she has been telling me what to do, but her methood isnt working out either! she insists no matter how long the get along well together that they should only be out for no longer than 20 minutes at a time. and she also insits that they must be outside on the grass during bonding time. well thats hard to do becuase this afternoon it was 103ferinhite outside!! i keep them out for 20 minutes together and they normally dont even notice each other. and she they do the smell each other and hop away. she is also telling me to NEVER let them touch until the agression is over. well... i dont know, but i dont think its agression, i think they are just trying to sniff each other. maybe i should let them touch. i contacted her about all my conserns but she is sooo busy with the bunny rescue and her 12shift job.

there is no fighting, but they are not laying together. but they are groomingthemselfs and eating together. they ocasionally sniff. i was so sure they would be bonded by now.

do i listen to her, or go back to having them out 4+ hours a day together. when i did that they would lay next to each other and pay attention to each other. thats what i am mainly conserned about. she says its not how long you have them out together but the number of times. she also told me they are not bonded until within the first 15 minutes of there bonding time they groom each other.

 

[naturestee]

That sounds like an awful lot of rules. And why do they have to be outside? Do you have neutral territory that you can use inside?

I don't see how limiting them to 20 minutes each time can encourage them to bond. It takes time to work through their issues with each other, and separating them when they aren't showing aggression or getting stressed does not help that. One of the ways I knew Fey and Sprite were more bonded was that they could tolerate each other's presence for longer without getting irritated. They need to be able to touch too, as long as they aren't hurting each other. Nudges, gentle nips, and mounting are parts of rabbit communication and dominance.

I think you should go back to the long sessions like you were doing it before. Just don't move them to non-neutral territory until there's absolutely no aggression.

 

[MyBabyBunnies]

I think she's right about the bonding sessions being no longer than 20 (ok so perhaps 30 minutes may be good as well)minutes each as long as they are fighting, why? Because they are more likely to become agressive the longer the session is if they get slightly annoyed or something. You could always do what I did -- do multiple short bonding sessions with at least and hours break between each one. You would be AMAZED at how much those breaks from each other help!

Now mine were bonded in 3 weeks and I had almost no agression what-so-ever but going by all sources I read before bonding my 2, you should allow them to sniff and even a little chasing is ok, as long as one is backing down. If neither is running away from the chasing, etc. Then you need to stop it immediately. I found that a squirt of water to the head did wonders but be warned -- water will not stop 2 rabbits from fighting if not stopped immediately. I got to the point where all I had to do was shake the water bottle and Mocha backed off.

What ever you do, always end bonding sessions on a GOOD note. When they fight you want to split them up but do notend their bonding session, you need to wait until something good happens like going near eachother and no fighting, grooming, or something else that is non-agressive. If you end on a bad note, it makes bonding so much harder.

Keep in mind I'm no bonding expert, I've only bonded rabbits twice and both were very easy at the time. Others may have different opinions but this is the information I've gathered from others' experiences and websites.

 

[manda]

yeah i hope more people can give me some info. i have read all i found online already. this woman has been bonding bunnies for years and years now. heck, she works at a rabbit rescue! but it sounds a bit crazy to me.

there IS nuetral space in the house. she says no where in the house is nuetral because it will still smell like a rabbit. i dont agree with her, but like i said she has been doing this for years, and this is my first time.

since i am not working anymore i can give them tons of bonding sessions. but not when they HAVE to be outside and its 103!!!

also about the sniffing and chasing... they dont chase each other very much at all. Ryo does the chasing and Alex hops away. and they do sniff alot, but my hand is almost right between them(since she said not to let them touch)

all sessions i do end on a good note with treats. they ONLY get treats when they are together. and there very specail crasins. there is no hair pulling or fighting or nipping but thats because i am not letting them touch... i dont understand how they get bonded if they cant touch

in the past when i had them out 4+ hours a day they were doing great until i put them on non nuetral territory. there four hours out a day was the time when they got their salads and there only out time to. she they were behaved. Ryo gets VERY frusterated at me moving her in and out of the cage and carrier.

 

[MyBabyBunnies]

I don't think they have to be outside, just a room neither have ever been in alone (it's still neutral if both were in the area as long as it was at the same time). If they are not going near eachother, it's best to contain them to a smaller area. Giving them too much room to roam is allowing them to completely avoid bonding, I don't know if that's the case. If they are find for long periods in neutral areas, then it's fine to leave them together as long as they are not fighting but when moving them to non-neutral territory, keep the sessions short but you can still do many in a day.

You could also try moving them from neutral territory to semi-neutral territory and try it, I don't know if this would work but if you take another area they have rarely if ever been and allow each to be in there for a little bit on their own to establish some territory and then put them together in it. Since they are not allowed in it alone for too long, it may be sort of a transition from neutral to non-neutral.

She gave you her opinion and what's worked for her, everybody does something different, it just depends on what works for you and your bunnies. It's important to just take it slow, experiment, etc.

I would also suggest switching their cages every 3 days or so. This will give them time to establish the cage as their house and then have to contend with being in another rabbits cage and another rabbit being in theirs, it helps to get them used to sharing previously non-neutral territory. They are housed near each other right?

 

[MyBabyBunnies]

manda wrote:

also about the sniffing and chasing... they dont chase each other very much at all. Ryo does the chasing and Alex hops away. and they do sniff alot, but my hand is almost right between them(since she said not to let them touch)

You have to let them touch, by putting you're hand there you are distracting them and basically slowing all attempts at bonding them. They need to figrure out some sort of pecking order -- so some minor chasing, nipping, and mounting is ok, you just don't want it to get out of hand. You shouldn't allow them to chase all over the room but one chasing the other about a foot away and then backing off is not bad at all. Especially since it's 2 rabbits that seem to have been hard to bond, you need to allow them to figure something out and work out any problems they have.

When I put mine together, I put them in opposite ends and let them go visit eachother in their own terms and I sat off to the side with leather gloves (just in case I had to get my hands between them) and a squirt bottle. I avoided interfering until I thought the fighting was going to get out of hand.

 

[manda]

thanks for the replies. keep them comin everyone. i want as many opinions as possible

 

[manda]

im also setting in the middle with them the whole time to. with my hand between them all the time, like that woman advised me to do.

 

[tamsin]

How are they going to bond if they never touch? Bonding is the process where rabbits meet each other and establish the terms of their friendship, mostly whose going to be incharge. Rabbit's can't speak to each so they communicate through body language. When they wash they are saying 'I'm not interested in a fight', when one mounts the other they're saying 'I'm going to be the leader'. If you stop them doing those things or seperate them in the middle of discussions they're never going to settle on the friendship.

It doesn't sound like your rabbits have had a fight, you wouldn't miss that. In a fight two rabbits will latch onto each other and kick, rolling over on their sides on the floor. A bit of chasing and mounting is perfectly normal.

If the rabbits have already spent four hours together with no problem they are virtually bonded. Seperating them after twenty minutes just means they have to go through re-establishing the friendship rules each time they meet.

I'd suggest you choose a day you have free and put them together first thing in the morning, watch them all day and provided they continue as they are now clean the housing in the evening and put them to bed. Sleep on the floor next to them if you're worried It's best to put the girl into the boy's area if possible.

Neuteral territoral can be anywhere, I use my kitchen

Here's a diary of bonding Alfie with his previous partner: http://www.rabbitrehome.org.uk/care/bondingdiary.asp

I was taking things slow because they were both boys and I was a little worried about fighting. With Alfie's current girlfriend they spent one day and night in the kitchen and went straight in their enclosure the following morning.

 

[MyBabyBunnies]

tamsin wrote:

How are they going to bond if they never touch? Bonding is the process where rabbits meet each other and establish the terms of their friendship, mostly whose going to be incharge. Rabbit's can't speak to each so they communicate through body language. When they wash they are saying 'I'm not interested in a fight', when one mounts the other they're saying 'I'm going to be the leader'. If you stop them doing those things or seperate them in the middle of discussions they're never going to settle on the friendship.

I defintely agree with that. It seems that by not letting them touch and physically being between then, you are actually discouraging them from bonding.

If the rabbits have already spent four hours together with no problem they are virtually bonded. Seperating them after twenty minutes just means they have to go through re-establishing the friendship rules each time they meet. I'd suggest you choose a day you have free and put them together first thing in the morning, watch them all day and provided they continue as they are now clean the housing in the evening and put them to bed. Sleep on the floor next to them if you're worried It's best to put the girl into the boy's area if possible.

Just because they spent 4 hours together in neutral territory does not mean you can rush things when putting them in an area that's not neutral. Separating them after 30(ish) minutes of being in a non-neutral area will not ruin anything, it will help prevent any fighting. If you leave them together for too long, you're rushing it and risk having to start all over again. I did about 4 short bonding sessions before doing any longer ones and I only stopped the session if one was getting annoyed. I always made sure to end it on a good note, but I didn't want that annoyance to turn into something bigger.

I also don't think going right from neutral territory to non-neutral territory to housing together that same day is a good idea, it's rushing things. You need to give them (especially 2 males or an exceptionally hard pair to bond) time to get used to the idea that they have to share, it's too likely to encourage fighting by not taking things slow enough.

Again, that's my opinion, and I strongly believe all that I said especially because you've had issues with bonding haven't you? They've been sort of hard to bond? I think that makes it even more important to keep the non-neutral area bonding slowly.

P.S.- I'm not sure what sexes you're rabbits are, sorry.

 

[tamsin]

Sorry, perhaps that last bit wasn't as clear as it could have been, I meant if they've had sessions four hours long on neuteral territory with out problems then next step is a day on neutral territory. Don't just stick them straight in the non-neutral area at the start of the day.

If they've spent 12 hours acting like friends then you might as well try the non-neutral next. If they're getting along fine then I don't see much to be gained by splitting them up again. The longer they spend in each others company the more bonded they become.

The thing with bonding is there is more than one way to do it successfully and even more ways if you consider tailoring it to individual bunnies. So, no ones giving you wrong answers as such just lots of different methods

Tam

 

[manda]

they were getting along great for weeks! they just were not grooming. i put them on non nuetreal ground and Alex had to go to the vet because he got a BAD bite.

 

[manda]

Alex is a boy, and Ryo is a girl. both sexually altered.

well, i just went upstairs and did a 20 minute bonding session without my hand between them. but did set with them within arms length away. there were two nips. both done by Ryo. Alex backed down both times, and towrd the end of the bonding session Alex layed next to Ryo smelling her for about 5 mintues. and then hopped off and none were agressive. i gave them there treats, and put them back into there cages.

no fur was pulled and no blood drawn.

so someone tell me what that means. isnt that a good, normal session??

what next? some one give me an idea. i am not working anymore, i just have a few dogs to groom so i have most of the day to do whatever. would it be good or bad to have them 20 minutes out together. put them up... two hours later 20 minutes together, and repeat repeat repeat until bed time?

sorry for all the questions i am just very tired of this. its been going on for over 4 months. most days they seem like they get along fine, just no grooming.

 

[MyBabyBunnies]

That was a great session! You can increase the time they are together as you feel comfortable, if you don't want to push your luck then separate them when you're ready, if you feel comfortable and they are doing fine, they can stay together longer if you want. If they start to become increasingly aggressive, wait for the next good thing to happen and then end the session.

It's important that you're comfortable, if the rabbits sense that you're not, they may becomes more edgy and more likely to fight.

You can also increase the distance between you and them. You should be able to feel completely comfortable turning your back and leaving the room with them together before moving them to non-neuteral territory.

Good luck!

 

[manda]

thanks. I made a horrible mistake introducing them on non nuetral grounds last time. I deffinally learned my lession! i am glad you think it went well. i admit, i was nervous, but i just lost a job and been going through some crap so i am nervous anyway.

 

[manda]

i had them out again this morning. they started circling and Alex pulled out a tad of Ryo's hair. but she didnt try to fight him at all. they ignored each other, and a little later Ryo layed down nose to nose with Alex. there was no bitiing but Ryo looked very displeased. then she hopped off. after that i gave them lovin and put them away. this was a 25 mintue session. i think i am going to get them out several times together today.

 

[sheridan]

I havent yet tried to bond my 2 rexes but since they are getting fixed in 2 weeks I have been asking around and this is what I was told.

Introduce them on netutral ground(doesnt have to be grass). Let them play for about 5 mins at a time to start with and as time goes on and they dont fight increase the time until they are happy with each other. Let them be but be ready to interfere if some aggro does occur. If there is some aggro then maybe put them together but with a gate or something inbetween so they can see and sniff each other but cant figt.



I hope this helps:colors:

 

[manda]

thanks, but ive been doing things like that for a few months now, until that woman gave me oviously bad advice.

 

[tamsin]

Has there been any signs of aggression? If you've been doing this for months then I'm not sure what you're waiting to happen before moving forward It sounds like you have a pair of bonded rabbits that just don't live together yet.

 

[manda]

oh no, they do nip each other, and pull fur.

usually they compleatly ignore each other. never any grooming.

like i said i did an intro on no nuetral territory and it required a vet visit and a couple of weeks of anti biotics. Ryo tore Alex up