Genetics help please.....thought I had REWs...turns out they're Himis...

[TinysMom]

Mama rabbit is a chestnut agouti....daddy is a chinchilla. When she had five babies three weeks ago - one was chinchilla (or maybe squirrel - I really need to put the baby next to daddy to tell for sure - but I lean towards chinchilla) - one was chestnut and three were REWs (or so I thought).

Now I understand how I can get three REWs...both parents had the hidden REW gene on the C gene.

But now they're getting darker on their noses and a bit of black on their tails...meaning they're himis (or pointed white on the lionhead COD for ARBA).

HUH?

How did I get himis from two agouti rabbits? Now I am lost.

 

[clevername]

Okay I don't have any experience with pointed whites, but I believe himi fills the same slot as the chinchilla genes and albino gene.

So to get Himi both parents must carry it (offspring= c[sup]h[/sup] c[sup]h[/sup]) OR one parent threw himi and one threw REW for the himi to be dominant over (c[sup]h [/sup]c).

 

[bunnybunbunb]

clevername wrote:

Okay I don't have any experience with pointed whites, but I believe himi fills the same slot as the chinchilla genes and albino gene.

So to get Himi both parents must carry it (offspring= c[suP]h[/suP] c[suP]h[/suP]) OR one parent threw himi and one threw REW for the himi to be dominant over (c[suP]h [/suP]c).

I am with that ^^. Sadly the babies will be agouti though. I have never saw an agouti himi but I hear sometimes the agouti messes the points all up but I am not sure.

I thought you where not breed anymore, have you started back?

 

[TinysMom]

bunnybunbunb wrote:

I thought you where not breed anymore, have you started back?

No - I am not breeding anymore (on purpose).

Those who read my blog know the story - Darla - our foster bunny who lived in the bedroom jumped into a NIC pen with Harry (aka "StudMuffin")....and the rest...is history.

Harry was being "hospitalized" in our bedroom because he seem depressed so I wanted to change his environment.

For some reason :nerves1he perked up after a few days.....he's now back in a cage in the rabbitry.

Oh well....Darla is being a great mom.

 

[TinysMom]

clevername wrote:

Okay I don't have any experience with pointed whites, but I believe himi fills the same slot as the chinchilla genes and albino gene.

So to get Himi both parents must carry it (offspring= c[sup]h[/sup] c[sup]h[/sup]) OR one parent threw himi and one threw REW for the himi to be dominant over (c[sup]h [/sup]c).

"Pointed White" is just the name that is being used for the himi coloring in lionheads (and maybe other breeds? I forget).

But genetically - it is still the himi coloring and genetics...they're just calling it by a different name - I think per ARBA's request but don't quote me on that - its been a while since I've been active in the lionhead breeder discussions...

 

[TinysMom]

I have had agouti himis before .... cute even if they're not "showable" and the coloring is messed up.

Since these guys/gals might always live here (still trying to decide on that) - it isn't like it will be a big deal.

I am in love with the chinchilla baby and the chestnut baby - the himi babies are cute too....and they're so funny and are starting to drive mama up the wall.....

I'm wondering now who carried the himi gene - if it was mama or papa. Anyway - should turn out interesting. The colors are only now starting to come in and I really was thinking they were just getting their noses dirty till I saw a very distinct black marking on one's tail.

 

[polly]

awwwww Peg how cute congrats there is nothing like a new girlie to perk a buck up rofl

 

[clevername]

TinysMom wrote:

"Pointed White" is just the name that is being used for the himi coloring in lionheads (and maybe other breeds? I forget).

We call them Pointed Whites for the angora breeds too, so I'm just stuck in the habit of using that term I guess.

 

[TinysMom]

Thanks everyone for the help. Its also been pointed out to me privately that it is also possible for these two to not be agouti himis because they could be carrying something else behind the agouti (the parents that is).

It will be fun to watch and see them develop. They're definitely NOT show lionheads as their mama is only 1/2 lionhead and their daddy was a single mane lionhead - of the old-style look.

 

[crazymandolinist]

What's the differance between the old style and the new? I know one of them has a shorter body....

 

[TinysMom]

When lionheads were first brought into the states they had a much different body type and head/ear structure than what many breeders are looking for now.

They had longer noses and their ears were longer and more mule-ish in the look. Their bodies were longer and wider too.

This is Hyacinth - an import from the UK.

This is Harry - 2 generations past the UK imports (but not related to Hyacinth at all):

and this is Pow Wow - one of the closest does I've had to what the standards appear to be looking for:

These next two pictures are of Isenstar - not the best - but if you look at her posture and size of ears, etc - you'll see she has more of a cat-look to her ears and head shape:

I hope these help.

 

[crazymandolinist]

Thanks. By looking at those pictures I see I got a real nice bun...

 

[TinysMom]

Your bun is a pretty color and has a short body which is good. The ears look a bit big to me and pretty thick - like the older style ears - but I could be wrong.

My biggest concern is the lack of a nice mane.

This bun will make a great pet - not sure I would be breeding it though (I don't know if you were asking for that reason). I find that many rabbits that don't keep their manes - produce offspring that also don't keep their manes.

I hate the mane gene...I've had gorgeous double mane rabbits that lose their mane - single mane rabbits that keep their mane - and of course vice versa on both of those situations.

With the number of lionhead breeders out there now and the quality of the lionhead bloodlines - if I was going to start breeding again - I'd ask to see pictures of the parents and grandparents (like they do for the lionhead auction at lionhead nationals) - because that would give me a better feel for if the lionhead will keep the mane.

Harry - the second picture I showed had a wispy single mane - that keeps getting fuller and fuller with every molt. All of his offspring - and grandchildren - kept their manes into adulthood and would get them back after every molt....so although he is the old-style lionhead - he helped give the gene that keeps the manes.

 

[crazymandolinist]

Considering he came from a good home and he has a full mane, good body, good color, etc. I think I got a really good deal. Especially now that I have a good breeder to contact when I wish too. Sooner or later I'll end up with "better" rabbits but for now I like my rag tag bunch o buns!

 

[TinysMom]

I'm glad you like him - because ultimately - that is what really matters.

If I had known 4 years ago what I know now about lionheads and showing them and what the standard calls for, etc - I never would have considered buying Harry or Hyacinth or even my beloved Miss Bea (a harlequin patterned lionhead).

If I'd not bought them - I'd have missed out on so much....so I'm glad I had them even though they're definitely not "show-able".

Enjoy your rabbit!

 

[bunnybunbunb]

Type is not everything To often do people pick type over friendliness. I would rather have a nice rabbit than a typy one, even in breeding.

 

[TinysMom]

bunnybunbunb wrote:

Type is not everything To often do people pick type over friendliness. I would rather have a nice rabbit than a typy one, even in breeding.

Oh how true that is. Some of my favorites were never ones I'd put on the show tables...so loving and sweet...but oh so not-showable.

I do wish that ARBA would add points for "friendliness" to the lionhead standard!

:biggrin2:

I never showed much - always won at least one of the BOB or BOS whenever I showed though - usually because of "type".

But it became discouraging to drive a minimum of 4 hours one way to a show - to have a rabbit win for type when I knew I had lovers and cuddlers at home who would never do well on the table.

That was when I decided to go ahead and use type in my breeding - of course - but to focus on making sure I had friendly and loving rabbits as much as possible....and I stopped showing.

I guess though because my mentor really put me through the wringer learning "type"...when others show their bunnies it tends to be the first thing I think of.

Anyway - I think each breeder needs to figure out for themselves what is most important - if ARBA and showmanship is important to the breeder - than type is important for showing.

But if showing isn't the goal - then go for the sweeties - by all means!

 

[bunnybunbunb]

I love going to arba shows but I have only ever showed at small 4-h shows. Bringing any of my beloved guys to a show with 100-300 rabbits is not appealing to me in anyway, health risks are to high. The stress of the drive makes them so much more likely to get an illness.

What does a BOB tell you that you did not already know? Your rabbit is awesome whether a third party person thinks so or not.

Way to many times have I saw a rabbit with 3+ legs but the rabbit looks yucky. There are many lines out there that the rabbits look amazing as juniors, so the breeder shows them like crazy to get many legs, but once the adult hormones kick in the rabbits type, for whatever reason, gots to pot. Once the rabbit hits senior they sell them for a good chunk of change because of their legs, not because of their type. I am not saying every breeder or line is this way, because they are not, but in Mini Rex, Lionhead and French Lops I have saw it way to many times to count.