Friendship questions

[TinysMom]

I'm sorta struggling with something that is new for me and because I tend to be naive and ... gullible...well...I guess I'll just write my mini-novel and hope enough folks read it to give me advice.

First of all - I'm very shy by nature and not an overly outgoing person. I don't make friends easily and I don't make a lot of them. I do have lots of "acquaintances" but not a lot of friends. But usually -once I make a friend - we're friends for almost forever. I've "lost" friends in the past - but usually due to one or both moving and losing touch with each other. At times - I've found them again (or they've found me) and we've been able to reconnect almost as if there was no lost time.

I say this to say - when I make a friend - I tend to hold on to them...and I really appreciate them. I don't easily let them go and I try to do whatever I can to hold the friendship together - sometimes to my detriment.

I say all that so that you'll understand my struggle.

I have a friend who has lied to me - more than once. They don't know I know (or at least I haven't told them). I suspected it back a while ago but decided to just "let it go". It happened again a few weeks ago and I figured that they lied because they were concerned about my reaction about something. I was heartbroken when I realized they'd lied (or at least it appears as though they lied because I double checked what they'd told me). I finally got to the point though in the last few days when I was like, "I can understand their reasoning...I can let go of it...I can enjoy the friendship." It was hard - really hard to get to that point - but I figured that to keep the friendship - it was best to just swallow my hurt feelings and go on.

In the last couple days - some other stuff has come out - and I find out that they lied to me again. It was over something that they could've said, "Let's not discuss it.." or "I don't want to talk about it..". It wasn't even something important - I'd simply asked them a question about something to show my interest...and they lied.

The reason I'm coming here is because I just don't know how to handle this. How do you handle it when a friend lies to you?

Most of my friends in the past have come from my church - or have been in my age range (brought up the same way - with the same beliefs about life and values and stuff). So while it is very possible I've been lied to before by folks - it hasn't been with this....I don't know how to explain it. Its almost like they can just gloss over the lie and keep on going.

Now when they say something to me I find myself going in the back of my mind, "Yeah...whatever...". I don't trust them - I don't believe them. I don't know if I want to believe them.

But - because I'm naive (Art says I'm 'overprotected' because I haven't worked in the real world that much and much of my life was focused on being a wife/mom and being around church friends...so I don't know what "real life" is like).....I'm coming here to ask...

How do you handle it when you know a friend lies to you? Do you let the friendship go? Do you just...not hang out together but still count them as your friend? Do you confront them with the fact you know they lied?

Art's given me some advice and I'm going to talk to my kids because they've been out in the "real world" more with college, etc.

Right now I'm feeling pretty devastated - I was working on the greeting cards in Family Dollar and saw this pretty friendship card that I thought about getting but it said something about how "I can tell you anything and trust you"...and I realized - I no longer feel that way...and I sat in the store and cried.

I'm feeling pretty stupid for being so upset over being lied to - its just...a pet peeve of mine.

By the way - I'm not saying I've never lied myself - I used to have a major problem with lying when I was a kid. But I honestly try to not lie ...

I am really looking forward to hearing what y'all have to say.

I told Art last night - I'm going to start being friends with only my bunnies 'cause they don't lie to me. He then reminded me of how Wedge fakes being more sick than he is when I enter the room...so that I'll spend time with him and hold him and stuff...

So now I can't even trust my bunnies!

:shock:

Edited to add (lest folks get the wrong idea): While I have a lot of friends here on the forum - I also have "real life" friends here at home. This situation has to do with someone I deal with off the forum.

 

[JadeIcing]

Sometimes you lie, sometimes you don't tell the whole truth. Sometimes because you don't want to hurt someone, sometimes because it is easier. Sometimes you don't know how to tell that truth.

I am strong believer in confronting them and talking. The thing is you have to really listen. Yes voices can become raised, yes feeling can be hurt but if you are really are friends than you can get passed.

I have a passing friend, she used to be someone I went to all the time. After some major things we aren't as close but we still talk. I see her at major holidays, and gatherings where alot of us are together.

I also believe that some friends are only meant for a portion of your life. Than others are meant for all your life. Honestly their are I have four that I know are for life. (This is not counting family members who I consider friends too.)

 

[Bo B Bunny]

Well, the bunnies lie because they crave more of your attention..... that's a good thing really!

Honestly, Peg, now you know why I hate people and say so a lot. I was a lot like you when I was around 21 years old..... and I had some really bad things happen that hurt me so deeply. People showed me that no matter who it is, they will lie, cheat, and hurt someone innocent if it gets them what they want. After all of these years, I have never gotten over this woman I worked for doing this stuff...

Then, I actually had something happen surrounding a teacher in the kids' Catholic School one time! :shock:She flat out lied to the PRIEST! :shock:and I knew it and she knew it. And it wasn't That big of a deal to have to lie about it....

Anyhow, I keep friends at arm's length.... I don't think I have a friend that I can tell anything to.... except for Bo.

If I do happen to catch someone in a lie - if it involves me - I will confront them about it.... in front of who they lied to or whatever.... They usually deny it but then again, the seed of doubt is at least placed in the lied to individual's ear.....

If it doesn't involve me...... I ignore it, but I remember it and I am always cautious with that person from then on. I know they lie.

In the past I would be more devastated, and more shocked, hurt, all that..... now, I've realized that most people aren't good at heart. That's the lesson I learned back 24 years ago....... I was so naive and I thought people were honest..... and I was SO wrong..... proven so time and time again.

This person who hurt you.... just decide if it's worth your friendship? Can you redefine the type of friend this person is?

 

[tundrakatiebean]

Just to say this since nobody else has: Maybe the lying isn't about you. I know people lie to me occasionally whether it's just because they don't want to so 'no, I don't want to talk about' since they view it as rude or just because they don't tell the whole truth or whatever. People aren't perfect, some people lie, maybe for no reason at all. If it's really bothering you(which it seems to be) tell your friend, you don't even need to start a 'real' conversation, just say "I know you've been lying to me and it's really starting to bother me, I'm having a hard time trusting what you say. I just wanted to let you know."
Personally, I just let it go, except in super extreme cases. I guess I just have a mentality closer to let it be than anything.

Good luck with your friend.

 

[TinysMom]

Bo B Bunny wrote:

Well, the bunnies lie because they crave more of your attention..... that's a good thing really!

Well - I'm not going to tell them that....

Honestly, Peg, now you know why I hate people and say so a lot. I was a lot like you when I was around 21 years old..... and I had some really bad things happen that hurt me so deeply. People showed me that no matter who it is, they will lie, cheat, and hurt someone innocent if it gets them what they want. After all of these years, I have never gotten over this woman I worked for doing this stuff...

That is pretty much what Art said to me...that folks will lie, cheat, etc. if it gets them what they want.

I can sorta understand one of the lies....but the latest one...eh. Its almost like...I don't know. I want to say "the glibness" with which they lied to me...but that isn't right. I mean - the lie didn't gain them anything other than answering a question and they could've just said, "I don't want to talk about it.." (which I think I've shown in the past that I won't push on).

Then, I actually had something happen surrounding a teacher in the kids' Catholic School one time! :shock:She flat out lied to the PRIEST! :shock:and I knew it and she knew it. And it wasn't That big of a deal to have to lie about it....

Anyhow, I keep friends at arm's length.... I don't think I have a friend that I can tell anything to.... except for Bo.


Well - I guess I've learned my lesson Bo. It took me till I was 48 (actually - I had other things happen to me earlier this year that made me decide to not trust others...but then I decided to trust again. HA HA).

If I do happen to catch someone in a lie - if it involves me - I will confront them about it.... in front of who they lied to or whatever.... They usually deny it but then again, the seed of doubt is at least placed in the lied to individual's ear.....

The lie wasn't about me - so I'm not worried about that. Its just....I don't know. I think it is that the lie wasn't necessary...so if they'll lie to me about some stuff - how do I know they won't lie to me about other stuff.

If it doesn't involve me...... I ignore it, but I remember it and I am always cautious with that person from then on. I know they lie.

I guess that is where I am right now - well - along with being hurt. I'm cautious. I don't want to believe them - even if they are telling the truth.

In the past I would be more devastated, and more shocked, hurt, all that..... now, I've realized that most people aren't good at heart. That's the lesson I learned back 24 years ago....... I was so naive and I thought people were honest..... and I was SO wrong..... proven so time and time again.

This person who hurt you.... just decide if it's worth your friendship? Can you redefine the type of friend this person is?

Once again - you sound like Art. He's basically told me to think through what this person means to me and if I can get past it.

He also (lovingly) reminded me that when we were first married - I lied a lot - to him (who I supposedly loved the most). Yet - he didn't write me off - or walk away. He shared that even now - after 29 years of marriage - there are those moments when it goes through his head of "Is she lying to me?" but he chooses to believe me anyway.

He and I are probably going to go to the park today with a sandwich or something (the running water helps me think and clear my head) and we'll just talk.

I feel so stupid for even bringing this question here - I mean - it isn't as if it is about the forum or anything. But I've seen folks bring questions here about boyfriends/girlfriends and other people in their "real lives" - that I thought maybe I'd bring this here and get some thoughts and input while I try to work things out.

 

[TinysMom]

JadeIcing wrote:

I also believe that some friends are only meant for a portion of your life. Than others are meant for all your life. Honestly their are I have four that I know are for life. (This is not counting family members who I consider friends too.)

This is a good point Ali - one I want to think about and reflect on.

I am really enjoying what folks are sharing because it is helping me think through things...

 

[TinysMom]

tundrakatiebean wrote:

Just to say this since nobody else has: Maybe the lying isn't about you.

Wow - what perspective. Art tried to say this to me but I didn't "get it". But I think I can understand it the way you said it.

So much meat to think about from the input y'all have given me...

 

[Bo B Bunny]

Tell Art he's a wise man.....

Actually, I really hope things work out for the best. I would worry if someone was lying about little stuff too...... but then again, maybe that's all they do lie about... little stuff.

It's so hard to second guess people.... I just have to hope my gut guides me.

If I listen to it, I usually get the correct answer.....

Have a nice time in the park. Here, you'd need a parka and hot chocolate! LOL! It's cold but gorgeous!

 

[JadeIcing]

For some people it is a cumpulsion to lie.

 

[ChandieLee]

I, too, have a peeve about lying. It really hurts me when a friend I trust (and who I thought trusted me in return) lies to me. A girl I've known since sixth grade, who I once considered my best friend, used to lie to me all the time, and I would confront her about these lies. Even after I confronted her and she promised to stop lying to me, she still lied. Not only did she lie, but she continually ditched me for other friends, and guys. It came to a point where I felt I was unimportant and used and for my own sake, I had to end our friendship. I could no longer sit back and let her hurt me. I;m not saying you should just up and end your friendship. Is there a way that you can confront your friend?

I also agree with Ali's point about some friends are only there for a portion of life. Through out life, friend's come and go. To be honest, I'm just learning this myself.

 

[Bunnys_rule63]

TinysMom wrote:

tundrakatiebean wrote:

Just to say this since nobody else has: Maybe the lying isn't about you.

Wow - what perspective. Art tried to say this to me but I didn't "get it". But I think I can understand it the way you said it.

So much meat to think about from the input y'all have given me...

I agree. Whilst I do think that we should always try and be truthful I also know that sometimes so much goes on in our lives that we don't want people to know about sothatsometimes people have to lie. It's nothing to do with the personbeing liedto but more to to with the person telling the lie.



I don't know what the situation is with the lie here Peg, however if it is a big lie then maybe consider why? I'd doubt it was anything to do with you.However if it was a petty lie over something stupid then I'd either ignore it or ask her about it. Either way - don't worry about it.

 

[NZminilops]

Sometimes lying is just easier, people seem to be lazy when it comes to friendship these days.

I don't really have any advice, I used to be a compulsive liar especially as a teenager and young kid, so that was hard to try and get out of my system.

I've only ever had one or two friends in my life from teenager-hood onwards, and I find that women tend to lie far more often than men do, who seem to prefer to be brutally honest - I have only tried being friends with one girl since highschool and she was a devious wench.

Also I think it depends on what you or you friend would class as a 'bad' lie...I had to borrow money earlier this year for a doctors visit when I was having a miscarriage, the person I borrowed money from, I didn't want them to know because they can't keep anything to themselves, so I lied. The lie was to protect myself but also save my family being worried or upset if they heard about it. I don't know if that makes me horrible or not, but I felt I had to do it.

I think you need to have a chat to your friend about this, or it will just fester inside you and poison the relationship.

 

[TinysMom]

NZminilops wrote:

Sometimes lying is just easier, people seem to be lazy when it comes to friendship these days.

I don't really have any advice, I used to be a compulsive liar especially as a teenager and young kid, so that was hard to try and get out of my system.

Thanks a lot for the comments (everyone) - but I really loved what NZminilops said about people being lazy when it comes to friendships. I don't know why that hit me.

To clarify a few things...my adopted dad was a compulsive liar and I had problems with lying as a kid and into my early adult years. However, I would lie to "protect myself" if I thought someone would be upset with me....vs. being a compulsive liar who wants to lie about everything or whatever.

It took me several years into our marriage to see what it was doing to the trust level of our marriage - to get over the whole idea that its ok to lie (although I do still struggle with it at times and get tempted even now - 20+ years later).

Nowadays if I "lie" its usually because I forget what I said and someone will ask me "did you say this to so and so..." and I may not be able to remember. I wish I had perfect memory for conversations - but I don't.

One of the many things I've learned over the years is I can be friends with people even if they don't believe as I do. While the majority of my friends might have been a lot like me - I've had others that weren't. I've never felt like I had to give up the friendship because they weren't of my faith or they made lifestyle choices I wouldn't make. My faith and my standards are for me....I don't expect all of my friends to live up to them.

So that is why I'm struggling so much with this....how can I accept it if someone does X,Y or Z....but not accept them if they lie to me? I mean....I'd still care about them and be friends even if other things were different from what I believe.

Y'all have given me a lot to think about and reflect on. As I said earlier, I've sorta been "protected" from a lot of things - and I'm from an older generation than many folks on here. So sometimes I need advice from people who have been out in the world more.

Bo - we wound up not going to eat at the park....its too HOT for me to really enjoy it. I brought my sandwich home.

Finally - I want to clarify something here. I may live on the forum sometimes - but I also have "real life" friends in addition to my "internet friends". This happened with someone I consider a "real life" friend.

Well - I'm off to either play with bunnies or clean off my desk. I now have stuff piled up so high that I can't see the bottom of the monitor... :shock: I thought about asking Isenstar to come throw things on the floor for me..but then the girls would really have too much fun.

I think though I'm gonna go snuggle with bunnies for a bit.

 

[NorthernAutumn]

I don't really have anything new to add, Peg.
Just wanted to give you a :hug:.

I've had similar experiences with girls. I'm shy, lots of acquaintences, not many friends. My own best girlfriend lives in Toronto, and I've got my BF Nate. The rest are ppl that I don't really connect with.
Some were my friends for a period of time, while we were both in the same headspace, with things in common. Some bonds dissolve as we grow apart.

I find that most of them have some sort of personal agenda (concious or subconcious) that they are dealing with. Lies are just plain annoying, b/c then I have to keep trying to sort out the truth from the fiction.

Most of the time tho, if the lie is small and doesn't relate in any way to me, I'll let it go.
If I truly don't believe what they are saying, I'm pretty blunt. "You're full of c***. or "I'm confused.." Last week you told me this.
or,... "Didn't blankity blank happen last week? What are you talking about?!"

I think that if I only have one person besides Nate to talk to + tell my secrets to, I'm doing pretty good. I wish I had more friends in the real world too, tho.

Wonder how many people who have a lot of animals (like pretty much everybody on RO) feel frustrated by pointless human relationships. It seems like a pretty common trend among all of us...

(I think that I am usually at my most honest and direct on RO... Writing has a way of drawing that out of people...)

However, like somebody above me wrote.... The lies that aren't about you shouldn't matter... But it certainly sets the tone, doesn't it. If its serious enough, I think you can ask "why did you lie to me about that? I thought we were close enough friends to be honest with eachother?"

 

[Bassetluv]

Wonder how many people who have a lot of animals (like pretty much everybody on RO) feel frustrated by pointless human relationships. It seems like a pretty common trend among all of us...

I have a theory. After perusing online forums for several years now I've noticed a trend...a great many people who love animals tend to have either gone through some sort of abuse in their lives at some point, or they have been deeply hurt by others in some way. Certainly not all animal lovers have, but I've noticed it over and over again in forums where people who treasure their pets go to post. It is such a natural human trait to need and desire love, and when that love is betrayed, or damaged in some way, by another human, a reasonable response would be to turn to animals since they are a great source of comfort and unconditional love. It's certainly what happened with myself...although part of my love for animals seems to be inherited from my mom...I went through a pretty hellish childhood and my only source of comfort came from family pets. (Of course too, looking at it from yet another aspect - a more spiritual perspective - I tend to believe that these animals come to those who are in pain to help them. Whether it is our own souls that summon them, or on a preordained level they, as soulmates of ours, agreed to enter our lives, they do come into our lives for a purpose.)

I must say though, on the subject of lying...how one deals with it depends upon the type of lie, the frequency of the lying, and how tolerant the person who has been lied to will be. For myself, once someone has lied to me - not a minor white lie, but something that might be somewhat hurtful - I have an immediate reaction of wanting to distance myself from that person. I may still talk to them, see them on occasion, but the friendship itself would be greatly strained and they would probably become more of an aquaintance to me after that, than they would be a friend. This is most likely because of two things: my past childhood and my past marriage. I went through a lot of bad stuff in my childhood, things a child should never go through, and as a result wound up distancing myself from people. And when I married, my husband had several affairs, and in each case lied and never once admitted the truth to me, even long after I knew. So when someone lies to me it immediately becomes a huge trust issue. Trust is broken, and hence I distance myself...and the distancing is an instinctive reaction; what I learned to do in childhood in order not to be hurt. In my case, my learned defence has hurt no one but myself. To distance onesself from others is a form of self-punishment; in attempting to avoid becoming hurt, one hurts their own self.

Anyway, as I said, I guess it comes down to the type of lie, how often, and just how tolerant the person would be toward having a friend who is known to lie. For myself, it would be immediate distancing...and if the lie was very hurtful, I would probably wind up avoiding the person altogether.

Not sure I've contributed much to this topic...lol...I think I've just rambled on.

 

[TinysMom]

Rambling is fine - it can be helpful!

I'm trying to figure out what to say / how to say it.

This wasn't as super duper close a friend as I guess maybe I made it sound. I mean - in a way I was feeling close to them but I was probably feeling closer to them than they were to me.

Now that my work hours are dropping from about 20 hours per week to about 4 hours per week (with my main company - other companies are dropping too)....I was thinking about "building" the relationship with them - getting together more - etc.

I was feeling like I could trust them with anything - had trusted them with some things - but nothing really "secret". Just...was feeling like I could trust them that way.

I can't really go into what they were lying about - but it was close enough to being about me (on some things) and then other little things that sorta were lies. I don't know....its hard to explain.

I had really looked forward to this friendship going further....we'd known each other for a while although our paths didn't cross as often as I might have liked. We'd met at church...then been at Bible Studies together for a bit. Our town is a small town - we ran into each other a lot - especially once I started working in the stores. I once shared my approximate schedule with them (I'm usually in certain stores on certain days) and then it seemed like we ran into each other more often.

I guess I had more invested in the relationship in my mind - thinking about how nice it was to have another friend...wanting to get to know them more.

Someone who cared about me - talked to me this weekend - just to give me a "heads up". Actually - two someones who care about me. Both had similar sort of conversations with this person and that made them sorta compare notes.

I of course...insisted they must be wrong.

:shock:

I'm going to think about this some more...but I think I'm going to probably just move this relationship (in my mind/heart) from "friends" to "friendly acquaintance".

I don't think I'll seek them out - but still be friendly when we chat.

 

[NorthernAutumn]

I think maybe you should spend some more time with those mysterious someones... They sound like good friends who care about you.

I was wondering if maybe there is another forum besides church for you to meet people at... writer's society? Book club? Perhaps something involved with animals?

(Sadly, I remember meeting many people from various churches (including my own) who have disappointed me in their personal relationships. In fact, I think I'm usually even more disappointed, considering that these folks supposedly show up to church to learn how to have better relationships with people + the god of their choice... I'm no saint, but I don't lie + sneak around the way some do... )

There I go, forcing my standards on others.... What hypocrisy...

Put an ad in the newspaper; start your own book club/writer's circle!
I know that the first step is hard; it's a lot easier to encourage you than do it myself..
BUT, you never know what kind of folks you'll meet
(If they're real whack jobs, at least you'll be able to tell us some really good stories):biggrin2:
BTW, when I'm feeling really antisocial/scared to meet people, I pretend like I'm my mom (who's super exuberent and friendly). It makes me feel braver.

 

[TinysMom]

NorthernAutumn wrote:

I think maybe you should spend some more time with those mysterious someones... They sound like good friends who care about you.

I'm actually spending part of tomorrow with one of them. Her name is Shirley and she has a daughter named Peg too. Her youngest child is my age....so she's older than I am for sure..

But she and I have a heart connection that has been there for um...4 years? We chat often times - but we don't usually MAKE the time to get together - she's so busy with her husband (who is legally blind and gets bored out of his mind)...and it was hard coordinating schedules w/ Art so I could have the car to drive out to their place.

But I love her dearly - she calls me "Peg of My Heart" (which was a song back when she was young I think).

She and I both love tea - and last year I made her up a big basket of about 2 dozen types of tea....tomorrow I'm gonna take her out more tea and just spend some time with her....

The other person - cried when she saw me at the conference. She and I had sorta connected - but I let the connection drop when we drifted away from church. (Its a long story).

I am going to try to call her and see if we can go out to lunch or something once Art starts midnight shift in a couple of weeks.....

I think those are the friendships I really need to focus more time and energy on. Both of these ladies are...special. I wish I could explain it.

It broke Shirley's heart to sit me down and say, "We need to talk" and she was in tears. But she did it 'cause I know she loves me.

I had just looked forward to having a close friend MY AGE again....

For some reason - it seems like either I have younger friends or older friends. I mean...that's nice...but I don't know. I'd like someone who is in the same stage of life as I am.

Oh well...I'll be grateful for what I do have for friends!

 

[JadeIcing]

This was a topic that struck a cord with me so I want to put this here.

I just read this in Dear Abby "Remember that friendships can have a life of their own and vary in intensity over time."

 

[Bo B Bunny]

so true