Fish Enthusiasts! Need some advice

[Happi Bun]

We have a 20 gallon with two fancy medium sized Goldfish. One is an Oranda, the other is a Ryukin.
Their names are Bing and Zuki.

We have a Hagen AquaClear Filter model 50 with 200 gph. Last night they were zipping around the tank and rubbing against the rocks. Ick perhaps? That's what we thought except there are no for sure visible signs of it. Bing our Oranda does have one or two white specks on his head, but we are not positive this is Ick. I've seen Ick in person before, so I do know what it looks like. Because it is not definite I'm hesitant about treating them for it.

Bought a test kit to make sure it wasn't caused by something off in the water parameters. Could use some advice on the readings? Nitrate 20 ppm, Nitrite 0 ppm, Hardness 75 ppm, Chlorine 0 ppm, Alkalinity 40 ppm, pH 7.2 ppm. According to the test strip the Alkalinity is low. We are planning on doing a water change (it's needed now anyway) and adding some Buffer-Up. Does this seem like the right course of action? Could low Alkalinity be the cause of their behavior or should we go ahead and treat for Ick too?

Thanks! :wave:

 

[countrybuns]

I would definately start by adding buffer-up as the level of alkalinity can affect the health of your fish and if after 24 hours you don't see an improvement move to treating them for Ick.

 

[RandomWiktor]

My guess would be that your problem is ammonia causing stress potentially contributing to health problems, as it pretty much always is with goldfish. Do you have a test kit to see what kind of ammonia you have?

I think whenever fish are acting off, the most important thing you can do is test parameters, perform a significant water change, put temps on the warmer side of the preferred range, up the aeration, and slowly add 1/2tsp/g of water. Often times this alone will take care of earlier stages of ich.

Flicking/rubbing is often due to external parasites, but can also indicate general discomfort. So definitely see if symptoms improve with clean water before adding medications.

 

[naturestee]

What is the hardness and alkalinity compared to your tap water? If it's off, it could be due to the biological processes and means you need to do water changes including gravel vacuums more often.

You can't go by what the test strip wants for alkalinity because it's more important what they're used to getting from your water and also different types of fish need different water conditions.

Ren, did you mean to add SALT to the water? The word was missing. I do that and the temp increase also if I suspect anything and the inhabitants are ok with it.

Edit: Ammonia test strips are a really good idea too.

 

[RandomWiktor]

Yeah, there should have been a "salt" in there, thanks. (oops!)

 

[Happi Bun]

Thanks for the quick replies everyone! So we will be buying an ammonia test kit tomorrow, I forgot about that, very important. We've only seen Bing and Zuki go the rubbing once so far, so it's not like it's happening throughout the day. Still airing on the side of caution though. Just got done doing a little over a 25% water change. I added a heater with thermostat as well because I just read that they need a constant temp at around 70 F. I will add the Buffer-Up, 2 teaspoons of salt.

Looking at them closer, it does look to be the beginning stages of Ick. Bing has two pencil sized white dots on his head and I can make out smaller white specks on Zuki's body. This would make sense and go along with the rubbing too.

I added the salt and waiting for the temp in the tank to adjust to a constant 70 F, how high should I make it to hopefully to knock this Ick before it needs medication? Or should I just go ahead and add the meds to the water?

Thanks!

 

[degrassi]

Looking at them closer, it does look to be the beginning stages of Ick. Bing has two pencil sized white dots on his head and I can make out smaller white specks on Zuki's body. This would make sense and go along with the rubbing too.

What do you mean by pencil sized? Ich looks like tiny little salt grains all over, usually the top of the body and fins.

Whenever you suspect illness start doing water changes. I would recommend doing atleast a 50% water change and then 25% every 1-2 days for a little while. If a fish is sick or acting weird your best defense is water changes and lots of them. As long as the temp matches and you use water conditioner you can never do too many water changes.

I wouldn't treat for Ick unless you are 100% positive its ich. No need to stress the fish out more by using medications if you don't need to.

I'd start with doing a bunch of water changes and see how they do tomorrow. If the white spots get worse and it starts to look like Ich then go ahead with treatment. Otherwise I wouldn't treat. They could just be flashing because of the water conditions or stress, not parasites.

As for your alkalinity, what is your tap water reading? I wouldn't mess around with adding buffers and what not. Most of the time it isn't needed and you can do more damage by changing around the water parameters. Fish are very adaptable and as long as they are acclimated slowly to the water they will do fine. Stable water parameters(your tap water or whatever source you are using) are better then you messing around and trying to change them, which can cause quick shifts and possibly kill your fish.

 

[kherrmann3]

Happi Bun wrote:

Bing has two pencil sized white dots on his head and I can make out smaller white specks on Zuki's body.

I hope you mean pencil-lead-sized! It is probably ich, and it starts way before you see the little "salt grains" on the fishies.

I always had luck with chelated copper sulfate. Mardel brand carries something called "CopperSafe" that I used. I love that product, but a lot of people from pet stores do not recommend it right away. One downside is that it kills any ornamental invertebrates in your tank (snails, etc.) and can also be harmful to live plants. On the package, it says, "Remove invertebrates without an exoskeleton from the tank." Being that I don't keep invertebrates, I never had a problem with this. One dose treats the tank for up to a month, so it kills the ich larvae that may be hanging around in the gravel, too. I've used it in tanks with loaches before, and even my scaleless fish have done well with it.

I hope that helps!

 

[Happi Bun]

Yes, yes. Two pencil lead sized dots. Guess I should have been more specific. We did go out and buy an ammonia test and it turns out there was some... 0.5 I believe it was. So we went ahead and got an ammonia detox. The ammonia was most likely due to the new filtration system, so lack of bacteria. They have been doing so much better and there are no white spots anymore! We found a super nice aquarium store about 30 mins away and visited. It was so amazing! Bought some goldfish specific frozen food that has good omnivorous ingredients. We saw a whole bunch of Goldfish we've never even heard of! One species we both fell in love with, the Ranchu Goldfish. Needless to say we went ahead and purchased one since our tank has been stable. Named the Goldfish Gumpy! Our tank isn't big enough for three and we will probably upgrade once the two start getting big. Thankfully we have a great relationship with a more local fish store and were more than happy to take Zuki, the Ryukin. They were excited because they didn't have any her color or size. I have peace of mind knowing she's in knowledgeable hands and because they will be asking more for her, that should help her go to someone knowledgeable too. So it all worked out beautifully!

We are also using sand as substrate instead of gravel now, too many horror stories.

Bing-

Gumpy-

The 20 gallon

 

[kherrmann3]

He's so cute! I always loved Ranchu's! :hearts:

 

[luvthempigs]

Your fish are very cute! Looks like you have an Oranda and a Ranchu

With Orandas it is common to see small white dots on the wen during a growth spurt.

 

[todd131]

what is the tank temp? raising it slowly will have an effect on the ich as the parasite typically doesnt survive in higher temps.

additionally, what type of water conditioner are you using?

nitrates seem high however, you did mention it was time for a water change.

i would stay away from buffers if possible. one thing you can do to help naturally buffer your water is age it for 24 hours prior to changing the water to stabilize the pH.

let us know how its going!

 

[Happi Bun]

Sorry for taking so long to respond, I didn't know anyone had posted.

Bing and Gumpy are doing wonderfully! Sadly after a week of having Gumpy home he developed Ick. I then realized the water was too cold than recommended (because our condo is kept cooler than most) and was stressing him out. So we put in a small heater that keeps it just right at 70 F. We put treatment in the water for the Ick, combined with the stable water temperature it quickly went away. Haven't had an ick problem since!

Did you know fish food has by-products?:shock: I sure didn't! Until I went to another awesome fish store that carried really high quality goldfish sinking pellets. I was shocked when I compared the ingredients. So now Gumpy and Bing get the good stuff.

 

[todd131]

Happi Bun wrote:

Did you know fish food has by-products?:shock:

sure did! i actually feed my fish the following food that i make myself:

3lbs. ground beef(7% fat or leaner)
1/2 lb. cod (skinless)
1/2 lb. shrimp (peeled)
2 table spoons peas (frozen/thawed)
3 large carrots (2 inch diameter) boiled first to soften
1 banana totally ripe (black skin)
Everything raw (except carrots), I put it through a meat grinder and then in the mixer.

In the bowl add:
25% Angel/Discus flake food (by volume)
1 ounces of Red Paprika powder
+ vitamins (7 tablets)
and 2 table spoons Oatmeal.

i put the mixture into small snack bags flattened in the bag and put in the freezer.



i am glad to hear your fish are doing great!

 

[Happi Bun]

I'm pretty sad... Gumpy developed Drospy completely out of the blue! :cry2 I swear he was fine until one morning I woke up and he looked like a swollen pine-cone. I had no idea it could happen so fast. He was obviously suffering immensely so I humanely euthanized him after researching the most pain free ways. It was awful but quick. I wont go into details but it was NOT freezing, flushing, or taking him out of water. All of those are torturous in my opinion. I didn't want to give up on him but I couldn't justify putting him through treatment that may work when he was obviously suffering so much.

Bing is still fine, I hope he stays that way.

 

[RandomWiktor]

Aw, I'm sorry. Fancy goldfish often have inherent physiological defects and weaknesses since they're so inbred, so he may have suffered organ failure at a young age as a result. Glad to hear you humanely euthanized him; Dropsy is just awful.