Dewlap removal?

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Can any of you out there who have booked their rabbits in for this, tell me what the aftercare involves and what sort of results they have seen please?
Mizla is 16mths,flemish giant doe who is having great difficulty cleaning her back end and this has been suggested.I'm just not sure for her.
Thankyou.
 
I've never heard of dewlap removal for rabbits. You mean surgical fat removal, like liposuction? Is your rabbit overweight, and does your rabbit have any other contributing medical issues like arthritis or spinal problems (specifically ruled out by exam and xrays), that would affect your rabbits ability to groom normally? Is it that your rabbits bum is getting soiled with urine or feces, and your rabbit isn't able to clean it off?
 
I've never heard of dewlap removal for rabbits. You mean surgical fat removal, like liposuction? Is your rabbit overweight, and does your rabbit have any other contributing medical issues like arthritis or spinal problems (specifically ruled out by exam and xrays), that would affect your rabbits ability to groom normally? Is it that your rabbits bum is getting soiled with urine or feces, and your rabbit isn't able to clean it off?
It does have fat in it but you wouldn't give a rabbit liposuction I don't think.It is an actual surgical removal of the whole bulge so they are able to reach their back end to groom and also eat their cecotropes.
Mizla has a constant soiled bottom which I have to clean daily.So, she isn't able to eat her cecotropes or reach round to groom herself.
She isn't overweight for a flemish giant doe although she is at the larger end of the scale.
The vet has recommended dewlap removal as an option.
 
Can you post a picture of your girl? Some of mine have huge dewlaps, at least Ruth has, I kinda think they change with hormone levels to some degree. Other than bald patches in the folds I've never seen that causing problems. Never heard of such a proceedure either, imho there are quite a lot of possible causes for this problem.

Rabbits I had to give but baths, I had a few, 3 by now, not sure about all the reasons. the two does recovered and are fine now, only my late Herr Hase had a spinal issue.
 
Can you post a picture of your girl? Some of mine have huge dewlaps, at least Ruth has, I kinda think they change with hormone levels to some degree. Other than bald patches in the folds I've never seen that causing problems. Never heard of such a proceedure either, imho there are quite a lot of possible causes for this problem.

Rabbits I had to give but baths, I had a few, 3 by now, not sure about all the reasons. the two does recovered and are fine now, only my late Herr Hase had a spinal issue.
 

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I am by no means an expert on rabbits (even less so regarding dewlaps) but for what it's worth, one of our girls (17 months old, 16 pounds with an "ideal" body score in regards to fat/muscle - so she's a bigger bun than some, but in a good/healthy way just like your bun) has a larger dewlap than your Mizla, and she is about as healthy and happy (and crazy!) as anyone could hope for; ergo, I wonder if there might be something else going on preventing Mizla from reaching where she needs to reach.
If it was me, I would ask my vet about trying a low dose of a rabbit safe anti-inflammatory, Meloxicam for example, for a week or two to see if that helps with any underlying pain issues she may be hiding, hoping she would start cleaning herself properly, before I'd bring her in for something as drastic surgery. There's quite a few other pain meds that are proven quite effective and considered safe with rabbits for short-term use, but of course clear them with your rabbit savvy vet first, especially the week before and after a surgery.
Mizla is as pretty as her name
 
I agree that surgery is a pretty drastic and high risk solution for this kind of issue, when there are typically much better and less invasive solutions. Honestly, I've never read or heard of such a thing being done on rabbits, though maybe it's just an unusual procedure. Do you know if your vet is an experienced rabbit vet (RWAF recommended rabbit vet)?

https://rabbitwelfare.co.uk/recommended-rabbit-friendly-vets/
Could you go into more detail about if the vet's determined a cause for the dirty bum and what, if anything, has been attempted to treat it? Is it a chronic untreatable condition, or if not, have any dietary changes been recommended and tried.

The majority of uneaten or mushy cecotrope issues with rabbits, primarily have to do with the improper balance of fiber in the diet, or a sensitivity to a particular food. So an increase in good quality medium coarse grass hay and decrease of other foods, is most often the remedy for this, and occasionally removing other specific foods from the diet that are causing issues, particularly high carb foods.

https://veterinarypartner.vin.com/default.aspx?pid=19239&id=4952892
https://rabbit.org/2013/01/disorders-of-the-cecum/
Rabbits digestive system

Also, to me she does look like she may be somewhat overweight as well, going by the fat rolls you can see on her front legs. Though I might be wrong and it could just be her positioning in the photo. But if when sitting/standing, she still has those rolls of skin around the legs and excess body fat around the torso, I would say that gradually reducing her calories some, may prove beneficial in helping improve the current messy bum and grooming issue. There's a body condition chart and weight info in the links below, to help determine a rabbits proper body condition.

Monitoring your rabbits weight

https://rabbitwelfare.co.uk/body-condition-score/
If there's a spinal or mobility issue like arthritis contributing to this, meloxicam certainly could prove helpful.
 
How does her spine feel when you stroke her from ears to tail? Can you easily count them?

What I see on the picture is that she's very wide, with the body type my rabbits have that would mean quite some fat. For comparision, my most well nourished, fat, spayed girl Dotty in the picture below. She's a gobbler, and since I don't need her to be in good breeding condition I enjoy her food adiction somewhat.

What is your rabbits diet, and daily routine?
 

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Wow,thanks everyone for really useful information which I will check out.I'll check out more about a more rabbit savvy vet too.

Mizla lives with her littermate,Hobi, a smaller buck.They live in a shed with 3 levels in it.
Food is 1/4 cup of pellets am.+ a dog bowl size full of cabbage,a carrot each and whatever else I have am. Pm they get a carrot,half a pear or cucumber slices or celery. They get 2 carrier bag size of hay am and pm.
They have free access to an 8 x 10 ft run and have access to a large grass garden once a day for up to 2 hours.
Mizla is active,does zoomies but at any opportunity will take food from Hobis mouth if she can.
Cleaning is so stressful as she does not like to be handled but I always have 2 people so one holds her and one cleans.

So far recommended....

Reducing the pellets
Rubbing vaseline round her bottom so hopefully nothing sticks to it.
Sitting her in a bowl of warm water to help with cleaning.
Dewlap removal.

The dewlap removal is definitely a very last resort for me.
I will devise a way to feed separately so she cannot steal Hobi's food.
 
Yeah, I would definitely suggest starting with completely removing the carrot and pear (and any other high carb food) as Diane R mentioned, as those high starch/sugary foods are the most common cause of mushy cecotropes. Or if immediately removing them from the diet is too distressing for your bun, start to gradually reduce them until you no longer feed it or you're just feeding a very small bit of it.

Then I would see how that goes and if there are any improvements in the cecotropes. If you don't see any improvement after a couple of weeks of the amount being significantly reduced to just a small piece, I would suggest removing both from the diet completely. Or if you already eliminated both completely and there's no improvement after a couple of weeks, then you need to start looking at the other food. Possible other culprits could be any of the other veg, the fresh grass or other plants she eats while in the garden, possibly the pellets, or very rarely the hay.

If their pellets are a cheaper quality pellet or a muesli mix, those are more likely to result in digestive issues than a better pet quality plain pellet, because of the higher carb content and lower fiber that is usually in the lower quality pellets. If you are feeding a good plain pellet, even though it's possible they could contribute to mushy cecals because of the added sugars and grains (though they contain a lesser amount), because you're only feeding 1/4 cup once a day for both rabbits, and big rabbits at that, I think that would be less likely to be causing the issue. Though still can't be ruled out completely.

Their hay is the least likely of all their food to be a cause, provided it's a good quality grass hay that hasn't gone bad, isn't contaminated with anything, and doesn't contain weeds that might be the cause. But if it's alfalfa hay or is a very rich and soft early growth cut of grass hay, then it's possible it's the cause, as those hays can cause digestive problems for some rabbits, or can cause an over production of cecotropes due to the excess nutrients and protein, particularly in addition to getting fresh grass each day, which tends to be more rich in nutrients unless it's a longer more mature growth. If you are feeding alfalfa or a rich early cut grass hay, I would suggest gradually switching to a medium coarse good quality grass hay like second cut timothy, orchard, meadow, etc.

So if it's not the hay, and removing the carrot and pear doesn't cause an improvement, then I would try removing the cucumber and celery next. If there's no improvement from removing those after a couple of weeks, I'd try reducing pellet amounts last. Unless you're feeding a poor quality pellet or muesli, then I'd suggest gradually switching them over to a better quality pellet like science select, etc, right away. That alone may resolve the issue. I've had poor quality pellets cause immediate digestive issues with only the smallest amount being given, particularly with my most sensitive buns.

Rabbit diet and feeding

If you've tried all of these suggestions and there's still no improvement, lastly would be looking at the fresh grass and forage they're eating in the garden. With that, you'd have to restrict garden time for a few weeks to see if that causes any improvement.

One other possibility to consider, is due to their time in the garden, they may have picked up intestinal worms that are causing the cecotrope issues. You could ask for a fecal float test done, possibly on both the fecal balls and cecotropes, to see if there are signs of parasite eggs. But sometimes the test can come back negative even though the rabbit does have them. In which case it may be worth asking your vet about trying a 5-10 day course of panacur just in case.

Medirabbit: pinworms

Another very slight possibility, is other internal issues like heart or liver problems. These would be less likely, particularly because of your rabbits young age, but are possibilities, especially the heart issues that can be more common in large breed rabbits. To determine if these are possibilities, more tests would need to be done (eg. blood tests, xrays, ultrasound, etc).

Those would be my suggestions. If it's food related, I would expect some, at least minimal, improvement in a couple weeks once the offending food is removed from the diet, but depending on the severity of the microflora imbalance in the cecum, it could take several weeks after the diet change, for the mushy cecotropes to completely clear up.

If you've treated with panacur, and the diet changes haven't made a difference, you might need to discuss having further tests done with your vet. And yes, I would suggest seeing a very knowledgeable rabbit vet. Not sure who the best is near you. I know Iain Cope at Newmarket Vets4pets, is a highly recommended rabbit vet from what I've read, if that's close enough to you. Or check the rwaf list for other recommendations.
 
Yeah, I would definitely suggest starting with completely removing the carrot and pear (and any other high carb food) as Diane R mentioned, as those high starch/sugary foods are the most common cause of mushy cecotropes. Or if immediately removing them from the diet is too distressing for your bun, start to gradually reduce them until you no longer feed it or you're just feeding a very small bit of it.

Then I would see how that goes and if there are any improvements in the cecotropes. If you don't see any improvement after a couple of weeks of the amount being significantly reduced to just a small piece, I would suggest removing both from the diet completely. Or if you already eliminated both completely and there's no improvement after a couple of weeks, then you need to start looking at the other food. Possible other culprits could be any of the other veg, the fresh grass or other plants she eats while in the garden, possibly the pellets, or very rarely the hay.

If their pellets are a cheaper quality pellet or a muesli mix, those are more likely to result in digestive issues than a better pet quality plain pellet, because of the higher carb content and lower fiber that is usually in the lower quality pellets. If you are feeding a good plain pellet, even though it's possible they could contribute to mushy cecals because of the added sugars and grains (though they contain a lesser amount), because you're only feeding 1/4 cup once a day for both rabbits, and big rabbits at that, I think that would be less likely to be causing the issue. Though still can't be ruled out completely.

Their hay is the least likely of all their food to be a cause, provided it's a good quality grass hay that hasn't gone bad, isn't contaminated with anything, and doesn't contain weeds that might be the cause. But if it's alfalfa hay or is a very rich and soft early growth cut of grass hay, then it's possible it's the cause, as those hays can cause digestive problems for some rabbits, or can cause an over production of cecotropes due to the excess nutrients and protein, particularly in addition to getting fresh grass each day, which tends to be more rich in nutrients unless it's a longer more mature growth. If you are feeding alfalfa or a rich early cut grass hay, I would suggest gradually switching to a medium coarse good quality grass hay like second cut timothy, orchard, meadow, etc.

So if it's not the hay, and removing the carrot and pear doesn't cause an improvement, then I would try removing the cucumber and celery next. If there's no improvement from removing those after a couple of weeks, I'd try reducing pellet amounts last. Unless you're feeding a poor quality pellet or muesli, then I'd suggest gradually switching them over to a better quality pellet like science select, etc, right away. That alone may resolve the issue. I've had poor quality pellets cause immediate digestive issues with only the smallest amount being given, particularly with my most sensitive buns.

Rabbit diet and feeding

If you've tried all of these suggestions and there's still no improvement, lastly would be looking at the fresh grass and forage they're eating in the garden. With that, you'd have to restrict garden time for a few weeks to see if that causes any improvement.

One other possibility to consider, is due to their time in the garden, they may have picked up intestinal worms that are causing the cecotrope issues. You could ask for a fecal float test done, possibly on both the fecal balls and cecotropes, to see if there are signs of parasite eggs. But sometimes the test can come back negative even though the rabbit does have them. In which case it may be worth asking your vet about trying a 5-10 day course of panacur just in case.

Medirabbit: pinworms

Another very slight possibility, is other internal issues like heart or liver problems. These would be less likely, particularly because of your rabbits young age, but are possibilities, especially the heart issues that can be more common in large breed rabbits. To determine if these are possibilities, more tests would need to be done (eg. blood tests, xrays, ultrasound, etc).

Those would be my suggestions. If it's food related, I would expect some, at least minimal, improvement in a couple weeks once the offending food is removed from the diet, but depending on the severity of the microflora imbalance in the cecum, it could take several weeks after the diet change, for the mushy cecotropes to completely clear up.

If you've treated with panacur, and the diet changes haven't made a difference, you might need to discuss having further tests done with your vet. And yes, I would suggest seeing a very knowledgeable rabbit vet. Not sure who the best is near you. I know Iain Cope at Newmarket Vets4pets, is a highly recommended rabbit vet from what I've read, if that's close enough to you. Or check the rwaf list for other recommendations.
That is awesome advice,thankyou.I will certainly work my way through those.It'll take a little while but we'll begin today and see how we go.Many thanksxxxx
 
Our Checkered Giant had a problem with a messy backside. I was told to change her pellets to a Timothy based--most have a lot of alfalfa in them--no more alfalfa pellets, no more problem--worked for us very well. Good luck.
 
I'd agree with the others. The most likely culprit, or at least the first thing to change, is eliminating the carrot and fruit. Those sugary treats can certainly cause poo/tummy issues-- especially in such large quantities.

The cabbage, celery and cucumbers would be next to reduce if eliminating the carrot and pear doesn't do the trick. When it comes to "veggies" it's best to think more in terms of "greens." Leafy greens are more what should be part of a rabbit's daily diet.
 
I'd agree with the others. The most likely culprit, or at least the first thing to change, is eliminating the carrot and fruit. Those sugary treats can certainly cause poo/tummy issues-- especially in such large quantities.

The cabbage, celery and cucumbers would be next to reduce if eliminating the carrot and pear doesn't do the trick. When it comes to "veggies" it's best to think more in terms of "greens." Leafy greens are more what should be part of a rabbit's daily diet.
Just bought extra greens ,thankyou everyone.Also just found a groomer willing to help me with trimming round her rear.We're on the way at least.Lots of things to try without going the dewlap removal route!
 
in regards to carrots - it's my understanding that the tops (the leafy green part growing above the soil) of the carrots are pretty healthy for rabbits, and the root (the typically orange part growing in the ground) is quite healthy for people; in fact, some recent data has come out where it is apparently MUCH healthier for people in several different ways, to the point that we should all probably start eating them - so perhaps the tops are even healthier for rabbits, too (but that is ONLY a guess).
I also wanted to add that there are quite a few very healthy and very rabbit safe herbs/flowers that have good to REALLY good anti-inflammatory and/or pain reducing properties. Do some research to find which might be easiest for you to find or grow yourself, but some of the more common ones at grocery stores and pet stores around where I live are: chamomile, rosemary, sage, mint, parsley, basil, dandelion and willow bark. Willow bark is also great for their teeth to chew on, plus makes great toys. The rest all have some really great additional benefits such as being really good for certain internal organs, being mild antibiotics, reducing heart disease, helping with good gut bacteria, and quite a few other wonderful benefits. Plus if Mizla is like our guys, she'll love the taste of at least some of the new herbs/flowers.
 
in regards to carrots - it's my understanding that the tops (the leafy green part growing above the soil) of the carrots are pretty healthy for rabbits, and the root (the typically orange part growing in the ground) is quite healthy for people; in fact, some recent data has come out where it is apparently MUCH healthier for people in several different ways, to the point that we should all probably start eating them - so perhaps the tops are even healthier for rabbits, too (but that is ONLY a guess).
I also wanted to add that there are quite a few very healthy and very rabbit safe herbs/flowers that have good to REALLY good anti-inflammatory and/or pain reducing properties. Do some research to find which might be easiest for you to find or grow yourself, but some of the more common ones at grocery stores and pet stores around where I live are: chamomile, rosemary, sage, mint, parsley, basil, dandelion and willow bark. Willow bark is also great for their teeth to chew on, plus makes great toys. The rest all have some really great additional benefits such as being really good for certain internal organs, being mild antibiotics, reducing heart disease, helping with good gut bacteria, and quite a few other wonderful benefits. Plus if Mizla is like our guys, she'll love the taste of at least some of the new herbs/flowers.
 
Thanks.I have herbs growing in their outdoor area and also in the garden which they eat freely when growing so I'm halfway there. I have as much variety as I can financially so I'll swap the carrots for something else.
 
I'd agree with the others. The most likely culprit, or at least the first thing to change, is eliminating the carrot and fruit. Those sugary treats can certainly cause poo/tummy issues-- especially in such large quantities.

The cabbage, celery and cucumbers would be next to reduce if eliminating the carrot and pear doesn't do the trick. When it comes to "veggies" it's best to think more in terms of "greens." Leafy greens are more what should be part of a rabbit's daily diet.

Forgot about the cabbage. Yes, the cabbage as well.

Remember to introduce any new food gradually and one at a time, so you'll know if it starts to cause any digestive upset.

https://rabbitsindoors.weebly.com/greens--veggies.html
Medirabbit: feeding veg and greens

And there's also keeping in mind, that adding new things into the diet right now, could make it more complicated and difficult trying to figure out which foods are currently causing the mushy cecotropes. Not that you can't add in new greens or that it will cause any problems, just something to consider.
 
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