Broken/Butterfly genetics

[Flashy]

ok, Peg just posted this on Emily's thread

'When people talk about the various colors - they generally refer to five different genes (A through E). I thought I'd address three of them here.

The "A" gene determines the "family" sort of. The most dominant gene is "A" which is agouti - which would be the chestnuts, chinchillas, opals, etc. The next most dominant gene is the "at" gene which is the tan pattern. This includes the martens, tans and otters. Finally, the lowest in the dominance chain is the "a" gene which is the "self" gene - which gives us black, blue, chocolate and lilac rabbits.

The "B" gene is really very easy for me to understand (one of the easiest). "B" is for black and blue. "b" is for chocolate and lilac. You'll understand why I give two colors for these when I talk about the "d" gene next...

The "D" gene stands for the density or diluteness of the color. If a rabbit has "D" it means that it has dense color. It can only be black or chocolate. If it has two "d" genes (one from each parent) - then it can only be blue or lilac.'

Which I understood! :nod

(I didn't understand the bit out _'s and stuff, but I'll settle for just understading that).

Now, as most people know, I have, and have bred, brokens/butterflies.

So, I can't believe I'm about to ask, but where does that come into genetics? RE the colour and the actual broken bit.

Please speak slowly and gently, my poor brain is a bit simple.

Thank you!

 

[Leaf]

What is butterfly? Is that the mark on their nose? I see some rabbits with a splotch mark on their nose that I always think of as a "butterfly" but then again - it's all in my head...

 

[Flashy]

Butterfly is the UK name for the USBrokens.

Basically, spotty. If you watch my scrolling avatar, the spotty bunnies are butterflies, some black (Sky, Sunny, Lightning, Flash, Moon), and one black otter (Star), and a tort aswell (Sunshine).

 

[pamnock]

Broken comes into play as a coat "pattern" gene:

En English White Spotting/broken

Du Dutch White Spotting/dutch

V Viennese White/BEW

w Wide Band

si Silvering.

Yep- more genes to learn LOL



Pam

 

[TinysMom]

Flashy,

I want to add something here about the "_" that you mentioned...

Each rabbit gets two parts to each gene....one from each parent. So for instance - it gets one of the "A" gene choices from one parent - and one from the other parent.

Sometimes we can know what both of those genes are. For instance - we know that a black rabbit is an "a,a" - getting the "a" from each parent ~ because it is the most recessive choice on that gene.

But if the rabbit is an agouti rabbit - we know it got an "A" from one parent - but we don't know what it got from the other parent (unless the other parent is a "self" rabbit of black, blue, chocolate or lilac).

So we know it has an "A" - because it is agouti - but we don't know what is in that second slot....thereby we write it as:

A,_

I hope this helps.

Peg

P.S. If a rabbit has ONE "en" gene - it will be broken. However, if you breed two broken parents together - you can get two "en" genes which usually is like a broken broken....meaning less of the color pattern on it. This rabbit will be an "en, en" and that means that if you use it in breeding...every rabbit you get from it will be broken. This is why a lot of breeders want to work with these rabbits (I don't know why they call them charlies though).

Have I confused you thoroughly yet?

 

[Lias_ark]

The broken (butterfly) gene is dominant to the solid gene. You will never get a broken from breeding 2 solids. Unless the one is a REW masking broken

 

[Flashy]

Thanks guys. This is really interesting.

Pam, is there any basic website that can explain those? I looked at the one Peg linked Emily to and it's great. Anything that explains in human, simple terms?

Peg, I do understand that explanation, so thank you. I don't think I could put it into practice, and I don't understand some of the logistics, but I understand the concept. I must say though, with pride, that I knew about Charlie's and passing on the 'en' gene (although I didn't know it was called that) and any charlie having broken children, but now I understand a bit more about why that happens.

Lias, thank you. That one sentence makes a great deal of sense.

I do have a question relating to broken's and non brokens, but I don't quite know how to word it, so I apologise if it's waffly, or stupid.

I understand that it's a dominant gene, but can it be a recessive (don't know if thats the right word) so could a self carry that gene and then could that gene be passed down which might see you have a random broken every now and then? I know that happens with some colours, but I don't fully understand which genes do what, sorry if that's stupid.

 

[pamnock]

Flashy wrote:

I understand that it's a dominant gene, but can it be a recessive (don't know if thats the right word) so could a self carry that gene and then could that gene be passed down which might see you have a random broken every now and then? I know that happens with some colours, but I don't fully understand which genes do what, sorry if that's stupid.

The self can't carry the gene and a true self could never produce a broken (no matter how many brokens are in the pedigree), however there are instances of faux selfs such as heavily marked booteds. "Booteds" are good examples of broken rabbits with such heavy color that they appear to be selfs. I've had a couple genetic brokens that just had white toes (Very heavy booteds).

REW & BEW can actually be broken genotype and produce brokens, but their phenotype (appearance) doesn't reveal their broken genotype.



Pam

 

[Flashy]

Thanks Pam.

Would I be stupid to ask why a self can't produce a broken? or shoudl I just accept it, lol.

 

[pamnock]

You may continue to analyze.

The spotting is caused by a mutation in the proteins that are necessary for proper cell migration.In the case of the spotting mutation in rabbits, there has been a deletion of some of these coding genes. Solid rabbits don't have this mutation/deletion of proteins. Because they don't have the mutation at all, they can't pass it on.

In most cases, we can tell they don't have it by their phenotype (appearance) - except for those few tricky faux brokens (heavy booteds).

The dominant spotting mutation is actually not completely dominant over the self and allows different degrees of color migration (less in the homozygous state).

You can find some sites on the internet that get into the more advanced chemical explanations of deletions in gene codingand the effects these mutations have.

Pam

 

[Flashy]

Wow, thanks for that Pam, that makes so much sense.

It's just like me to have a bunch of mutants.


Ha ha, I was wondering about other things related to this, such as marking of brokens and how much they inherit and how much is 'random'stuff, but that might tax my brain too far. I'll maybe google for info on it when I'ma bit more with it. Thank you so much.

 

[pamnock]

Everything is genetic - even when it isn't.

Nothing is random.

There are so many excellent books on the subject of genetics. I'm currently reading "The Human Genome Project" by E. Marshall. Short, easy read that covers the process of mapping genes. Very interesting and easy to understand. You should be able to find it at your local library (if not, they should be able to get it for you.)

Pam

 

[Flashy]

Thanks

I don't think I'm even registered with a library anymore, but my grandparents like to buy me rabbit books for things like Easter, so I'll ask for it. Thanks Pam.

 

[pamnock]

Get your butt to the library girl! There is a wealth of knowledge waiting for you there and its FREE!

Pam


DO ask for Rabbit Production for Christmas - it has a wealth of info including basic genetics information on rabbits . . .

It's a must have and a greatbook to start your rabbit library . . .

http://cgi.ebay.com/Rabbit-Production-Book-by-McNitt-Patton-Lukefahr-etc_W0QQitemZ160209848671QQihZ006QQcategoryZ2228QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQ_trksidZp1638.m118.l1247QQcmdZViewItem

 

[Flashy]

Ha ha. Yes. I really should. I should haul my butt and be productive.