Bladder Tonic?

[Kipcha]

So, the vet (The one that thinks Ty might have something other then kidney failure) decided to give Ty a try with a different type of treatment so today, she sent us home with bladder tonic, something they mix in the vet office.

We're supposed to give him 0.2 cc every 24 hours for 30 days. It consists of Coenzyme Q10, alpha lipoic acid and Vitamin E suspended in Flax Oil.

Anyone have experience with anything similar? Apparently it helps with organ functions (My Mom was the one who talked with her on the phone and she said the vet said it should help with "kidneys or bladders or something...") and I didn't get to talk with the vet while we were there because she was swamped, we just picked up the medication. I realise knowing exactly what it does would help but unfortuanatly, I was not on the phone at the time.

So has anyone used anything similar before? The vet seems to think that this will help with Ty's excessive water intake, so I guess we'll find out as Ty is getting his first dose tonight.

 

[Pipp]

interesting... no thoughts right now, but I'll be watching this.



sas :clover:

 

[Pipp]

There was a study done on this (for humans, of course, using the poor rabbits as the guinea pigs <cough>), I don't have the entire study but according to the abstract, it does work.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1757-5672.2009.00053.x/abstract

Remind me, is your vet at the Exotics clinic in Calgary? Dr. Kerry Korber?


sas :coolness:

 

[Kipcha]

Hmm, that's interesting...

I go to Avian and Exotic, so it is Dr. Korber is the head vet there, but I actually prefer to use Dr. Leticia Materi.

I'll be sure to keep this updated on how Ty responds to it.

 

[funnybunnymummy]

What does she think it is he has?

I would definitely like to hear if this works! I wonder if it helps with enzyme production in the kidneys (which is what the Benazepril Gus is on is supposed to do).

Rue

 

[Kipcha]

I'm not quite sure what she thinks (Again, I haven't had a chance to talk with her, I think she wants to see how he responds to this treatment) but I'm willing to try and see how it goes. I remember Mom asked about the medication that you were using for Gus and she wanted to try something less aggressive at first, just to see how he responded.

So, I'm going to try keeping a daily diary of Ty's water intake to see how it goes. I would keep track of waste output, but I'm not quite sure how to measure that so I guess I'm just going to have to eyeball it and clean out all output daily just to be sure.

Right now, Ty has access to both a large bowl and a water bottle as a back-up because, quite commonly, he empties his water bowl through the night and acts like he's in the sahara when he gets more in the morning, he sits and drinks and drinks and drinks for a long period of time. So, we decided adding a bottle in is the best option.

His water bowl is a large white plastic one that holds, when I fill it to just below the top, exactly 1 2/3 cups of water (I do not know what this is in milliliters, my kitchen measuring cup was all I had on hand). He does not spill any of it, so the only waste would be the amount he gets in his fur from guzzling it and occasionaly sticking his feet in it and allowing them to soak (Something he's always done, silly guy).

His water bottle holds 1 litre of water, and generally some of this goes down throughout the day, but today I will be measuring it this thoroughly for the first time.

I measured all this and gave it back to him at 12:12 pm, so I'll measure it the same time tomorrow and see how much he drinks. I will be leaving a measuring cup by his cage and printing out a piece of paper to record how much he is given by whoever gives it to him (Sometimes my Mom waters him without me knowing, so this way there will not be room for error).

I'm also going to be tracking what veggies and such he gets through the day as it does count as water, although I do not know how much of a difference it really makes, but who knows...

So, right now he has access to,
1 2/3 cups water via bowl
1 litre via bottle
No veggies yet today

I'll record the results around this time tomorrow on here... Can anyone else think of other variables? I really want to be thorough on this and find out exactly what's going on... Or am I going too in depth on this?

 

[funnybunnymummy]

If the treatment works, you'll notice a HUGE reduction in the amount he drinks. Since Gus started his treatment, his water consumption has easily gone down 50%. On good days, I worry he's drinking at all, since the water level in his bowl barely moves! But on bad days he'll go through 3+ bowls of water a day. I don't know exactly how much his bowl holds (I'll measure it later today), but I'm betting it's at least 1 C (250 mL).

Oh, and 1 2/3 C is 333 mL.

Does Ty get much dandelions? I know it's late in the season there, but I've noticed Gus seems to dribble less when he gets dandelions. He doesn't get them often, just whenever I can find some growing in a ditch or something, but I picked a whole pile for him on the weekend and he's been dry as a bone since and barely drinking at all (I'm guessing he's getting his liquids from his salads). He's still peeing, so I know he's not dehydrated or anything.

Anyway, just some more thoughts for you. Definitely let me know how it goes! I'd kind of like to try something else with Gus just because the medication he's on (it's a cream) makes his poor ears red and he detests having it applied. Who can blame him?

Fingers crossed for Ty!

Rue

 

[Kipcha]

That would be amazing to see his water intake go down that much, it's just crazy how much he drinks with how little he is.

Thanks for that, I was in a rush and didn't have time to look it all up.

He'll usually nibble on them when he's out on the grass but I never really watched to see how effective that was. There are some Organic food stores around so maybe they will have some I can get year round, but I would wait until the month of this medication is up so I don't screw with the results.

I'll definitely keep this up to date and let you know how it goes I think it would be great to find something a little less aggresive on their system but works just as well.

 

[funnybunnymummy]

Yeah, definitely don't start giving him dandelion until you've had a chance to see if the tonic works. You can always add in the dandelion later. It can't hurt and I think it will definitely help.

Is the tonic expensive? That's one thing about the Benazepril, it's not exactly cheap!

Rue

 

[Kipcha]

I have 30 days worth, and you give some every day, and it costed me $26.60. How much are your meds?

 

[funnybunnymummy]

$47 for 30 days worth. :faint:

Rue

 

[Kipcha]

Wow, well, if this works you should definitely check into it! It would probably cost a bit more for you because of the size difference between Ty and Gus, but I would imagine it would be worth your time.

Fingers crossed for both us and our buns.

 

[Kipcha]

Alright, so Ty drank the bowl down to the bottom but only took about 5 ml or so from the bottle, it was a pretty small amount.

Last night he had 2 baby carrots and a handful of parsley, so not a lot of water but probably enough to make some difference.

So we'll see how his water intake changes as the month goes by.

 

[tonyshuman]

That is strange because dandelion is a diuretic, causing more urine to be produced via more salts and water are removed from the blood. This also makes the kidneys function better, so that might be helpful, even if the total volume of water produced is more. The drug Gus is on increases blood flow in the kidneys.

The original tonic mentioned seems to be fine. I'm not sure it specifically would improve kidney function, but it has a lot of antioxidant effects, and in general reduce inflammation.

 

[pamnock]

Output is an important issue in finding out what is going on. Is he peeing it all out and getting dehydrated or retainingit and getting edemic and noisy in the lungs?I'd put him in a pen with a pan under him to monitor output for a few days.

 

[Kipcha]

Oh, he definitely is peeing a lot, there's no question about that. Even cleaning his cage everyday, he comes pretty close to soaking it. I had to take his bed out because he pees all over it and within a day, it's soaked. Right now, his "bed" is a blanket wrapped around a puppy pad so it's drawing the liquid though and leaving the blanket dry. So I know there is a lot of output, I just can't measure it.

I do not have a cage with a pan, however. He's in a NIC cage with a chloroplast bottom right now.

 

[funnybunnymummy]

Yeah, I knew dandelion was a diuretic and was actually trying not to give it to him too often in case it made him worse, but at this point it seems like it's helping. I'll let you know if it seems to stop working.

The vet told me the Benazepril was supposed to help him produce an enzyme that stops being produced when the kidneys fail. Maybe that happens when the blood flow is increased?

Anyway, sorry for hijacking your thread, Amanda! I'm hoping good things for Ty!

Rue

 

[Kipcha]

Oh, not at all Rue! We're both going through the same thing and as much information as we can get, the better.

 

[tonyshuman]

Rue, I think the thing your vet was talking about is a hormone that affects the amount of blood flow through the kidneys.

 

[funnybunnymummy]

Ah, okay. I was sure he said 'enzyme', but maybe it was 'hormone'.

Thanks!

Rue