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Flashy
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I'm having a Badger related nightmare.
He had a dental last week. We know he needs a dental when he starts to do this funny cough. After the dental the cough goes (we think its due to excess saliva).
However, before and after the dental he has been having breathing issues.
He breathes very hard and fast when he sits in certain positions (namely the meat loaf/duck/puff ball position with no legs). He has been caught with his chin right in the air clearly struggling to breathe. When he sleeps in that position he rocks pretty quickly as he breathes. He loses his nose wiggle when he is like this. You can also see the effort doing into breathing in his sides.
As I write his is lying in a completely different position showing none of these problems at all (typical).
No mouth breathing. No more coughing. No sneezing. He has had a damp nose but only slightly so, since we got him. Vets not shown any concern in that because he has no other symptoms of any problem- until now. He has also lost weight (1.7 kg down to 1.5kg) and we put that down to his teeth, but since his dental I can't push it up, no matter how much I try.
The next thing the vet said is x-rays, and Badger has a vets appointment on monday so I need a plan of action and questions to ask, by then.
He is 3 and a half. He has regular pellets and obviously hay, and has not lost his appetite at all (not even when his teeth were bad). No changes in anything in his life at all. No change in behaviour, very happy, alert and active chappy. He also looks excellent at the mo, which is always an indicator. He doesn't seem to feel bad in himself.
He's been on Metacam for his teeth for a week and is now coming off that (I've been reducing the dose over the past couple of days).
When he was under GA for his teeth they had a good listen to his lungs and can't hear anything wrong, no sounds of infection or anything anywhere in him. I'm worried about his heart?
Any ideas? Thoughts? Questions I can ask?
I don't want to lose another. I couldn't fight Summer's chest cancer because we knew what it was. I couldn't investigate Tilly's non infection chest issue (which we suspect was also cancer) because of her head tilt and how ill a GA made her. I can't do anything at all about Cloud's issue because he's a stresshead. I HAVE to make Badger ok, or at least get him the treatment he needs. He's not stressy, he's young and otherwise fit and can take whatever we have to do. I just don't know what we have to do.
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angieluv
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Strange that you are having a nightmare with Badger as I am in a nightmare at this moment with Beau. He went into stasis probably on Wed and I am still nursing him out of it. I am very frightened that it is due to his teeth which would make me have to syringe feed him until I can get the dentist and as you know the dentist is far away and the appointments have to be made weeks ahead of time.
Anyway I reread your post several times and am wondering if they could do a recheck of Badger's mouth post dental. What did they do? Was it simply molar spur grinding or was it something more.
Is it possible that he has some sort of post nasal drip that is occluding his trachea when he is in that particular meatloaf position?
Beau is doing a really odd motion which Is related to his teeth. Evert time he takes a drink from the nozzle of the water bottle he has to raise his head and neck in an odd way. It doesn't look like it is a breathing problem but just one of those things that occurs probably when his teeth are bothering him. I cannot figure it out
I guess the other possiblilty with Badger if not teeth related would be either chest or heart . Probably would be a good idea to get an x-ray of both .
Beau has often stretched his neck out oddly when his teeth are bothering him but it has never appeared to affect his breathing
Hope that you get some answers.; it is so hard to be in these kind of bunny nightmares.
Maureen
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tonyshuman
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I think an x-ray would be really good to rule out some serious stuff that could be going on with the heart and lungs. It's possible that his throat is also swollen from post-surgery irritation.
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Flashy
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Ok, you all sound relatively confused like me.
angieluv, I'm so sorry you are having a struggle with Beau. I sure hope that he comes out of it and it's NOT dental because I know how much of a nightmare that is for you.
I guess we will get an x-ray and then see where to go from there.
His tooth roots are completely fine, he's had that x-ray in November, so we would be looking at the chest area.
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Pipp
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I think we're confused because there can be so many causes.
Here's the article I was trying to find earlier:
http://www.petmd.com/rabbit/conditions/nose/c_rb_rhinitis_sinusitis
Sinus Infections in Rabbits
Rhinitis And Sinusitis
Rhinitis in rabbits is an inflammation of the nasal mucous membrane. Sinusitis is quite similar; it is an inflammation of the air-filled spaces surrounding the rabbit's sinus or nasal cavity. Both of these conditions can cause respiratory problems and are often noticed because of the rabbit's excessive sneezing and nasal discharge.
Symptoms and Types
There are both acute and chronic forms of rhinitis and sinusitis in rabbits. These can either be contagious, non-infectious, associated with allergies or other conditions, or due to an abnormal or deformed facial bone structure. Some common symptoms for sinusitis and rhinitis include: Sneezing
Runny nose (or nasal discharge)
Reduced airflow
Lack of appetite
Slobbering or excessive saliva
Dental disease
Discharge from the eyes or other orifices
Bleeding nose, which may suggest a bacterial infection in the teeth or mouth
Causes
There are many causes for sinusitis and rhinitis in rabbits, and they often are dependent on the type of condition (i.e., infectious or non-infectious form). The more common causes for the non-infectious forms of sinusitis and rhinitis include dental disease, trauma or injury to the face or nose, inhalation of foreign bodies including grass or seeds, allergies, and invasion of the nose by abnormal growth of cells, usually cancerous cells. The infectious forms of these two conditions may be due to bacterial, fungal or viral infections.
Diagnosis
To diagnose sinusitis or rhinitis, a veterinarian will typically perform blood tests and imaging examinations (e.g., X-rays, ultrasounds) to detect pneumonia, as this is a common condition in rabbits for these two cases. Occasionally, bacterial rhinitis will show up in imaging studies.
Swabs and cultures are done from time to time, but may be hard to discern, as some of the organisms in the samples may not be directly responsible for the condition (or opportunistic). Your veterinarian may also make a diagnosis by identifying any bone structure abnormalities or deformities in the rabbit's face or mouth, the latter being a common sign of dental disease.
Treatment
The type of treatment is dependent on the underlying cause for the symptoms. Oxygen is sometimes necessary if the rabbit has trouble breathing; using a humidifier can also help open airways. Other ways to improve respiratory function include washing the affecting area and removing any environmental irritants, especially known allergic items.
Antibiotics may help with cases of rhinitis or sinusitis due to bacterial infections. Often, secondary bacterial infections cause many of the clinical signs associated with these two conditions. And because certain topical nasal decongestants cause some symptoms to worsen, they are not commonly recommended. In these cases, your veterinarian may prescribe antihistamines.
Living and Management
Animals should be provided with a proper, well-balanced diet including a wide selection of fresh greens such as cilantro, romaine lettuce, parsley, dandelion greens and spinach. Recovering rabbits need plenty of fluids at this time, in addition to regular follow-up appointments. This will ensure that the long-term treatment is successful.
Rabbits with the chronic bacterial form of sinusitis are less likely to completely eliminate all symptoms. However, it is possible to control the disease's clinical symptoms with proper care and education.
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pamnock
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Heart problems can also cause respiratory symptoms.
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Flashy
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Yes, I did keep the appointment and take him to the vet- couldn't leave him suffering. No thanks.
Looks like a LRI. Slight sounds on lungs, but not as bad as before the dental. No signs of it being URI at all. He's been on Septrin for a week. His breathing looks a bit better but since I opened (and then speedily closed) the window in my room on Friday he has been coughing again. I think I'm going to have to take him back. My vet is comfortable using Convenia now, but not Zithromax (because he's never heard of it) or a Penicillin (I'm hoping to change this too). Not sure what med I should be looking at or asking for but I'm not comfortable having him just on Septrin when it doesn't seem to be doing much of anything. He's also on Metacam.Last edited on 21 Mar 2010 10:34 am by Flashy
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Pipp
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Aw, too bad, I was hoping it was just a dental byproduct and would just go away.
If it's a lower respiratory thing, I would think it needs aggressive treatment to make sure it doesn't develop into something worse.
This page addresses bacterial infections, the most relevant info about a LRI is down the page.
http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/Respiratory/Bacterial/URI.htm
I'm pretty sure Septrim is trimethoprim sulfadiazine, and MediRabbit really doesn't like that drug. Note the following paragraph:
Trimethoprim sulfadiazine is a bactericidal antibiotic used in GI tract, respiratory and urinary infections, among others. It is efficacious against a range of bacteria that affect rabbits, including Pasteurella sp., Clostridia spp., Staphylococcus sp., Bordetella sp., etc. It can be used long term, low dose. This antibiotic often shows poor results in rabbits, and often the disease comes back worse once the treatment is stopped. This could relate to the fact that half-life of trimethoprim in a rabbit last only 40 min.
Too bad the Vet isn't familiar with Zithromax. The next paragraph after the one I posted mentions it (azythromycin). It doesn't say it here, but I believe one of the its stronger points is its ability to fight stubborn URIs and LRIs. But of course it has to be the kind of bacteria its designed to fight.
I'd go for a culture or an x-ray next, probably a culture. Even if an x-ray showed another issue, an infection could still be accompanying it I guess. (But I am just guessing).
It doesn't specifically recommend it for a LRI here, but I've seen quite a bit of data suggesting that the best treatment is a combo with a nebulizer delivering an antibiotic deep into the respiratory system. A lot of people on the board have had good luck with nebulizers.
BTW, if you print the MediRabbit page out for the Vet, which is the best idea, make sure you also print the linked page about safe antibiotics. I see they mention Gentamycin in this article without comment, but on the 'safe' page, they don't recommend it.
Good luck!
sas  Last edited on 21 Mar 2010 11:57 am by Pipp
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Flashy
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Thank you.
Having read that article, it says
'Cephalosporins are bactericidal broad-spectrum antibiotics used to treat skeletal, genital/urinary, skin and soft tissue bacterial and respiratory (associated with Pasteurella sp.) infections, among others. There are several generations of cephalosporin, each aiming a more or less specific group of bacteria. Although quite safe when used in injected form, this drug is potentially nephrotoxic.'
Convenia is a Cephalosporin, so I would take it that it could potentially be of use?
Also, not sure of the risks of an x-ray on a rabbit with a compromised respiratory system?
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Flashy
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Off to emergency vets. Badger just woke up and started to mouth breathe :|
Just printing off the article to take.
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Flashy
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It has now progressed to full grown pneumonia. Jolly.
I didn't see it in time and he has had Convenia, but the other option today was Baytril :| So I had to make an on the spot decision given she thinks the next 24-48 hours will be critical. She is willing to use Zithromax but it has to be ordered in (otherwise he would have had that). At the end of the day, probably getting him through today is more key than anything, so if he does survive longer then he can change to something else once the Convenia has worn off. He will stay on the Septrin and Metacam throughout.
I've just spent an hour frantically locating a nebuliser, which I have now done, and she told me what stuff to use for it (quicker for me to buy it myself than for them to order it in).
He is pretty much fine in himself generally (eating, maintaining weight, looks good, very, very perky), the problem occurs when he is asleep because it sort of congeals (I suppose) in his chest. Obviously stress plays a part too. She said his left side is more congested than his right.
I'm off to try and work out how to use this nebuliser.Last edited on 21 Mar 2010 03:28 pm by Flashy
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tonyshuman
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Zithromax can usually be found at a human pharmacy too, just in case that helps. Convenia for rabbits should be dosed every 5 days, I think. This might be a good situation to nebulize with acetycysteine--it makes the mucus less thick.
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Flashy
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Thanks Claire. I'd be reluctant to do that, to be honest, unless I had used it before. I'd rather do it under the supervision of a vet in case it goes wrong.
I've been told to nebulise with something called F10SC, but until they get that, it has to be water.
How long may a nebuliser take to show that it is making an improvement or difference to him?
He's nice and bright today  and currently stuffing pellets.
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MPHF
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Hope Badger hurry ups and gets better.
Hugs to you all. x
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tonyshuman
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Here's info on the F10SC:http://www.f10biocare.co.uk/VETDISINFECTANT.pdf
It's mostly to kill bacteria and fungus. It sounds like an interesting approach, and it should work. I'd like to hear about how that goes.
It's not going to decrease the viscosity of his mucus, though. I don't know how long these things should take, especially since it probably depends on how many treatments per day, how long each treatment is, and what's being used. Nebulizing with water will soothe any dry nasal/bronchial passages.
This article from Dana Krempels suggests using acetylcysteine (to break up the mucus), amikacin (an antibiotic), and aminophylline (a bronchodialator--to open up airways) in the nebulizer.
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Rabbits-703/2009/12/Bunny-trouble-breathing-2.htm
I do think that this disinfectant the vet is ordering will probably work, as long as it's not too harsh on the airways, but the other compounds might help it get to where it needs to be--the mucus may be too thick and the airways too constricted to get the disinfectant where it needs to go. It is, of course, up to your vet to decide that!
I mentioned that azithromycin is found at human pharmacies because it's a place your vet could write a prescription for it and have it filled. You can't get it without a prescription at all, but it's just an option of a place where you could get the prescription written by your vet filled. You'd want to call ahead to the pharmacies to see if they will fill veterinary prescriptions. You'll probably have better luck with a smaller, compounding pharmacy for filling a vet prescription than a larger chain, but I've never done it so I'm not sure. Our Walgreens (huge drugstore chain) had a sign up once that they filled pet prescriptions, so you never know.
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Flashy
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Badger has made it all the way through his third gotcha day, THANKFULLY!
He's pottering on. I think the nebulising has really helped. Got the proper stuff today so will try that tomorrow. Going to also get Bisolvon I think too to help. He's doing ok, currently. I'm hoping the anti bios are doing some good.
Thanks all for your help.
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Flashy
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He's poddling on.
Yeh, I know Convenia wears off faster because we used it with TIlly and have also been closely involved in MPHFs Minnie's Convenia journey. They both had them redone at different times so I definitely know it can vary. He's going back tomorrow to discuss stuff further.
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MPHF
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Hope Badger gets on ok. Tilly will always be remembered especially for making Minnie so happy and comfortable.
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Flashy
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Thanks Clare. Sorry I haven't replied or updated my journal, we have had a hard week. Sky is perfect thank you Bounced back fine and quickly.
Right, back from the vets Badger has had another Convenia. The vet said he is going to look into Zithromax today to see if we can get a supply in. I said I Don't want to start it just before the Easter weekend (I don't need an Easter emergency again this year), so it will either be the start of this coming week, or the start of the next, after Easter.
Badger still sounds 'dull' on the left side. We talked about what to do next if this doesn't work and it will be x-rays and a culture (although it sounds like they have never done a deep culture on a bunny before. His words were 'not for the faint hearted') but obviously that's risky with him compromised respiratory system.
What I have found is that since I started nebulising I have not heard a proper cough. Not one, and he was coughing once every hour and a half or so. So I think the nebuliser had instant effects and I'm going to keep doing that.
I asked for, and have been given, Bisolvon which can be given orally and I know people who have nebulised with it too. My vet has never done it through nebuliser so I've got the task of researching that myself to work out what to do. I'm doubting anyone here will have used it, but if you have, any ideas of how much to add to saline?
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tonyshuman
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I'm so glad the nebulizing is working! I don't know much about Bisolvon, sorry.
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Flashy
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Just thought I'd update. Today his lungs are clearer (wahoo) so the 6 meds he are on are working (or some of them are). Unfortunately she can now hear his heart isn't right (not so wahoo) so he's going in for an x-ray on Thursday.
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angieluv
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Could the heart issues just be stress related; it has occured before on this forum .
I am so glad that his lungs are better.; you are doing such a great job Tracy. If I was a sick rabbit I would want to be owned by you. 
you are so diligent and thorough .
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tonyshuman
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I'm so glad his lungs are improving. I hope things with his heart improve as well!
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